Mark _australia said..
That was perhaps a case of more stable mono over stretchy xply (then) and not caring about longevity
They used the stable and fragile sail

So it's not the same. Boukes fin designs have no downside. They make you turn soooo much better and in wavesailing that wins yeah?

No , this is not how it is or was.
Most of todays "high end" weight reducing cloths being promoted and sold to you by the brands and PWA sailors are no better than those available to the sailmaking industry since the late 80's.
2.2kg 4.7m very strong wave sails from scrim laminates have been available since 1986, to my absolute certain knowledge.
For most of the time between 1986 and today (37 years) PWA sailors have been using sails 50-100% heavier than they needed to if the sails were made from ( always available) lightweight scrim laminates ( as many are today). Throughout this period there was an immediate and significant improvement to be made in their sail weights, 1-2kg lighter, and yet its taken 30+ years to happen for most.
This isnt arguable, it is demonstrable fact.
"Sometimes being too far ahead of the market looks as wacky as being too far behind."

Mark _australia said..
Dude you said in 10yrs everyone will be using your massive discovery - but you made it 15 years ago and been talking about it here for 5 to10. Arrogance ? Well, somewhat if you say that when we all wake up to your idea then quads will go away.

I still have an issue with NO sailors on the PWA using twisted assy toed fins even though they do use different board shapes to us (and work out and train heaps) .... so that tells me immediately what is far more important for a waveboard. If the $$$ and glory doesn't bring your inventions to the spotlight after 15yrs I dunno what will. In any pro sport endeavour the pro's use what really works.

As I said, fkn awesome that you spent all this money on research and build great boards and even better share the results - truly thats great - but you lost me when you said you change toe by 0.1 deg . So not a full degree - 0.1deg - which is 0.197mm of toe different on a side fin. That is marketing BS that some might fall, for but aussies are famous for having a sensitive BS meter. Really, a grain of sand in the box changing toe in, can be felt?

Check the MW sails thread lol. Rider5 does not to show the proof - the guy with the extraordinary claim needs to provide extraordinary proof.


Now: tough boards - hell yes you do that well. They're great.

I said 10 to 20 years..... giving that they are a bit slow to catch up.... You can hold me accountable on that.

And, given that I do not sponsor PWA riders, sorry for not running after them if they would please please use my fins just to make other boards better. To me the PWA is pretty much irrelevant. They make it very hard to impossible to enter for smaller brands. Plus it is pretty useless for developments for end users. It is mainly a promotion tool. These guys focus everything to sail a 10 or 20 minute heat full power and for that have a whole range of gear ready on the beach to quickly swap if conditions change. That is far off how normal people sail. A normal sailors sails for hours on end and prefers to not change gear at all. If anything reset the sail and that is it. Some PWA riders even change gear mid heat to first score waves and then jumps. That is completely counter productive for development if you ask me. Maybe the reason why there is hardly any real development? The last "innovation" was the square stubbie shapes. I already knew back then that they would disappear again. If I had a business just selling fins, I would have looked to sponsor PWA riders. But I developed the fins for my boards and not someone elses. Years ago the owner of MUF had one of my flex tails and he confirmed my fins work better than his. We had some talks to work together but I didn?t think the deal was good enough. Like I said, my interest is in making my boards better, not someone elses, so if I am going to make other boards better, it has to be worth it.Also, there are plenty of guys with PWA level skills who are not in the PWA. As they don?t need to focus on sailing heats but just go sailing like other guys, their feedback is much more relevant for other end users. My team riders just have one or maximum 2 boards so they get to test the range of the gear much more. Plus various PWA may be good sailors but dont really know the technical/physical side of things. Some 18 years ago a PWA rider wanted to test Will?s board. Just when he went out, the wind dropped and everyone started to come in. He stayed out but could not get planing. He came back and said it didn?t plane. I said: Did you not notice the wind dropped and everyone came in? Yes, but I had power in the sail. Don?t you know that just before the planing threshold, you have more power in the sail then when planing? No. Lateron the wind picked up and he gave it another try and everything was fine. So if for you the proof would be in PWA riders using them, I am afraid I cant help you for the reasons given above.

Edit: In december we had some Epic conditions and various PWA riders came over with a camera man:

The Witchcraft rider was not Yannick but a rental tourist. Yannick was on a semi custom Haka ST with a white bottom and their camera man had managed to shoot this in between:
That is a proper aerial, coming from under the lip and let the lip throw you forward like a giant hand, that requires timing and precision. Chop hopping down the wave is much easier.
I wasnt there those days but someone had been taking pictures:





If in the PWA there would be a push to use less gear, both to increase the range and durability, for example by allowing 2 boards and 4 sails for a season and if they need or want to use more, it would cost points, that would make it a lot more interesting and push innovation. That idea is nothing new, it is done in F1. Just already publishing the amount of gear they use through a season would provide interesting information for end users.

Brent in Qld said..

I really like my 87Pyro (am 90++kegs) as a twin for general bashing about and on most waves under logo. All in all, a pretty versatile board that likes to be sailed hard off the tail and loves to be driven at full throttle on all points of sail. I'd put it in the 'really fast' category and can be, as Mark says 'scary loose' as a twin. If I think I need a little more bite and am aiming for a more controlled session, I setup as a quad. I can feel the board slow ( maybe I need some assy/1-2? fwd fins to reduce drag?) and the whole setup feels more secure on bigger days.

IMO worth trying it

Extinction of quads or ridiculous topic same coin

Snapfigure said..

Brent in Qld said..

I really like my 87Pyro (am 90++kegs) as a twin for general bashing about and on most waves under logo. All in all, a pretty versatile board that likes to be sailed hard off the tail and loves to be driven at full throttle on all points of sail. I'd put it in the 'really fast' category and can be, as Mark says 'scary loose' as a twin. If I think I need a little more bite and am aiming for a more controlled session, I setup as a quad. I can feel the board slow ( maybe I need some assy/1-2? fwd fins to reduce drag?) and the whole setup feels more secure on bigger days.

IMO worth trying it

Extinction of quads or ridiculous topic same coin

How did you get FCS fins in a slot box?

yeah i've struggled with fcs too. boxes roll out of the boards and keep needing fixing. fcs are not structurally up for it.
the guys i've talked to in WA had similar issues.

i went from fcs to futures bases in my boards which work a treat. i also think there are better fin options for futures bases compared to fcs. especially as a lot of glass fins and bigger twin fins are futures base.

versafin do fcs, fcs2 to slot and mini tuttle adaptors. (snapfigures suggestion)
wierdo fins do a futures to us box adaptor that can be modified to suit slot box.
wasabi do fcs to futures adaptors.
NSP do an fcs to mini tuttle adaptor.

was thinking of sticking to futures bases in my builds but i think i'll start using slotbox and use adaptors. we are at a point now where slot box can take any fins with adaptors which opens up a world of options. adaptors are expensive though.

on a side note, tectonics fins also have toed asymmetric fins for slot box bases.

No wind frustration?

Bouke. Maybe you can't make no toe or twin fins or quads or other design philosophies work because you're just not up to it.

that seems more plausible then every other brand or person not on WitchCraft gear being incompetent.
by all means post some more photos. Keep the shill alive

Yeah, I read his post, I even responded with some help.

i was responding to your post. It appears you've not been able to make boards without 3 fins work based on everything you've posted

gorgesailor said..

R1DER said..

santi4 said..
You start the fight. I just mentioned the the topic is overrated and physical reason shows that the effect is very likely neglectable. Also experience support my claim, because there are so many different toe in configurations out there and still good boards.

But you show me some simfoil data to explain to me that I am wrong. I have no problem if somebody has an opinion on it, you have a lot of experience and you have many people who like your boards. That is fine and you can be proud of your achievements. But this is not enough for you, you come to every forum tell everybody that you have found the holy grail.......


hello... your tone behind the screen is a bit loud... calm down. have you tried the fins with pretwist? They are giving you the opportunity to try to improve your carving and get out of your boring 2+2=4 idea...I don't think your formulas justify putting the boxes straight.
I am testing in the water and surfing those changes are really noticeable... especially in trifin (which is not the same as thruster) single fin + stabilizers. try and enjoy, leave math for work...

santi4 said..
You start the fight. I just mentioned the the topic is overrated and physical reason shows that the effect is very likely neglectable. Also experience support my claim, because there are so many different toe in configurations out there and still good boards.

But you show me some simfoil data to explain to me that I am wrong. I have no problem if somebody has an opinion on it, you have a lot of experience and you have many people who like your boards. That is fine and you can be proud of your achievements. But this is not enough for you, you come to every forum tell everybody that you have found the holy grail.......


hello... your tone behind the screen is a bit loud... calm down. have you tried the fins with pretwist? They are giving you the opportunity to try to improve your carving and get out of your boring 2+2=4 idea...I don't think your formulas justify putting the boxes straight.
I am testing in the water and surfing those changes are really noticeable... especially in trifin (which is not the same as thruster) single fin + stabilizers. try and enjoy, leave math for work...

He doesn't have to calm down he's just passionate. It's refreshing to see here.

There's a difference between passionate & arrogant.

Yes there is, and it might sound arrogant. But I get passionate if someone tells me that he did have scientific evidence but doesnt understand what he is talking about. To tell other people that he has facts and ignoring the scientific reasoning is ignorant, I do not understand why anybody is listening to this nonsense. As I said I have not problem with someone telling me that he believes that his thing works because he has many happy customers. But everybody should be alert if you read pseudo scientific arguments and if these pseudo arguments being challenged cannot respond to any of it.

Marcin Kowaski
hace 2 semanas
What about toe in at your front fins i can see you use ezzy asymetric fins on your new ultrakode ?
3
Responder

Federico Morisio
?

3 respuestas
Federico Morisio
Federico Morisio
hace 2 semanas
Yes, I've been using those asymmetric lateral fins on the ultrakode in thruster setup as I feel like they make the board faster and more agile. Center fin is MFC though and all my quads are MFC K300 models!

Fins can change only a little and very subtle, it is mainly the rocker, OFO and railsshape that makes how tight you can turn and how much flow you can get out of a board.
Fins do ad, but it might be that last 10% tuning it down to personal prefferences.
Are you looking for that 10% OR IS IT ENOUGH?

SchobiHH said..

gorgesailor said..

R1DER said..

santi4 said..
You start the fight. I just mentioned the the topic is overrated and physical reason shows that the effect is very likely neglectable. Also experience support my claim, because there are so many different toe in configurations out there and still good boards.

But you show me some simfoil data to explain to me that I am wrong. I have no problem if somebody has an opinion on it, you have a lot of experience and you have many people who like your boards. That is fine and you can be proud of your achievements. But this is not enough for you, you come to every forum tell everybody that you have found the holy grail.......


hello... your tone behind the screen is a bit loud... calm down. have you tried the fins with pretwist? They are giving you the opportunity to try to improve your carving and get out of your boring 2+2=4 idea...I don't think your formulas justify putting the boxes straight.
I am testing in the water and surfing those changes are really noticeable... especially in trifin (which is not the same as thruster) single fin + stabilizers. try and enjoy, leave math for work...

santi4 said..
You start the fight. I just mentioned the the topic is overrated and physical reason shows that the effect is very likely neglectable. Also experience support my claim, because there are so many different toe in configurations out there and still good boards.

But you show me some simfoil data to explain to me that I am wrong. I have no problem if somebody has an opinion on it, you have a lot of experience and you have many people who like your boards. That is fine and you can be proud of your achievements. But this is not enough for you, you come to every forum tell everybody that you have found the holy grail.......


hello... your tone behind the screen is a bit loud... calm down. have you tried the fins with pretwist? They are giving you the opportunity to try to improve your carving and get out of your boring 2+2=4 idea...I don't think your formulas justify putting the boxes straight.
I am testing in the water and surfing those changes are really noticeable... especially in trifin (which is not the same as thruster) single fin + stabilizers. try and enjoy, leave math for work...

He doesn't have to calm down he's just passionate. It's refreshing to see here.

There's a difference between passionate & arrogant.

Yes there is, and it might sound arrogant. But I get passionate if someone tells me that he did have scientific evidence but doesnt understand what he is talking about. To tell other people that he has facts and ignoring the scientific reasoning is ignorant, I do not understand why anybody is listening to this nonsense. As I said I have not problem with someone telling me that he believes that his thing works because he has many happy customers. But everybody should be alert if you read pseudo scientific arguments and if these pseudo arguments being challenged cannot respond to any of it.

Do you have any thoughts on the science behind how toe in improves turning

SchobiHH said..

Too answer your question why nobody in the PWA is using twisted fins. The answer is very simple and obvious there can only be two reasons.
1. it doesn't matter
2. it is worse than no twist.
Clearly it is of no advantage because otherwise it would already be standard in fins.

So why is there only one person who is following this path, but makes boards with happy customers. So he is not unsuccessful with his approach. There can only be one reason: It doesn't really matter.
Coming back to my original statement that this whole discussion is totally overrated.

There are only 2 reasons?
No this is categorically untrue
There may be many reasons and as i have discussed in another post, PWA sailors have a very long history of NOT using the best available technologies.
By all means you can argue the merits of twisted toed fins versus not but your above argument is facile.

SchobiHH said..

Too answer your question why nobody in the PWA is using twisted fins. The answer is very simple and obvious there can only be two reasons.
1. it doesn't matter
2. it is worse than no twist.

3. They dont know of its existance or
4. if they do, their sponsor dont do them.
5. Their sponsor will not allow them to use Witchcraft fins.Randomly ask a few of them and you will find out. My guess is that at least 80% are unaware about them.

sheddweller said..

SchobiHH said..

Too answer your question why nobody in the PWA is using twisted fins. The answer is very simple and obvious there can only be two reasons.
1. it doesn't matter
2. it is worse than no twist.
Clearly it is of no advantage because otherwise it would already be standard in fins.

So why is there only one person who is following this path, but makes boards with happy customers. So he is not unsuccessful with his approach. There can only be one reason: It doesn't really matter.
Coming back to my o riginal statement that this whole discussion is totally overrated.

There are only 2 reasons?
No this is categorically untrue
There may be many reasons and as i have discussed in another post, PWA sailors have a very long history of NOT using the best available technologies.
By all means you can argue the merits of twisted toed fins versus not but your above argument is facile.

Of course it's a conspiracy. The "industry made them use gear they dislike". Which is why pwa wave sailors use custom boards and custom fins designed specifically for them.