Bernd Roediger

USA
US-1113
My favorite spot has been, and always will be, Ho'okipa.
Flikka Custom Quad 75L down the line, Flikka Custom Quad 74L "competition"

My setup

I'm an intuitive rider. I don't have any formulas for my equipment, other than change. I like changing things constantly, shaking up my fin setups, trying new and experimental configuration like Bonzers or "true quads" (quads with larger front fins than rear). My only rule is not to avoid getting attached to anything for too long.

sheddweller said..
I use quite big sides and relatively small centres. I have done quite a lot of "testing" by feeling of toe and fin set ups. Larger sides without toe "feel" draggy to me ( They also don't turn, especially at initiation- straight lining) I don't know if this can be measured with a GPS as I have only been doing this for myself, so I am only interested in my own feel and enjoyment. Small sides /zero toe with a larger centre mitigate the draggy feeling, but then I feel I may as well set up as a single. I am an average wave sailor and I m talking about front side sailing in groundswell waves. I have also found that fin set up in onshore conditions is much less critical, I can generally carry much larger fin clusters, and I don't find toe to be as critical either. Your experiences may differ...

After reading your post my first question was are u using asymmetric side fins.

Interesting discussion. A little bit of toe in is in fact better on all boards and with all fins. It is faster and less prone to strange hickups in turns. It baffles me that not all producers us a little toe in, say at least 1 degree. I use a minimum of 1.3 degrees and more commonly 1.5 or 1.8. This is with symmetric fins. A reason a board can still "get away with" 0 toe in is that most use very small and low power front fins. And if you aske me, the reason better working fronts (like surf fins) have not taken off, at least for serious wave riding, is that so many boards lack the necessary toe in. I adjust my toe in between 1.3 and 1.8 depending on the type of board and fin placement. With fins further to the rear and further to the rail, the toe in need to increase. When I have my rear twin/quad boxes relatively far apart, I toe in those too, around 0.5-0.7 degrees. Toe in has little to do with if it is a quad or thruster and I use the same fronts and change between thruster and quad all the time because it is an amazing way to fine tune the turning character fot he board. Toe in can be even more sensitive on quads though, in particular when the rears are wide apart and close to the fronts. Then toe in need to be tuned in concert. A properly toe in setup will not only turn better (as in more predictable) but also be a little be faster in a straightline due to the fins being more in line with the water flow, which "bends" outwards due to the board "parting the water". As somebody mentioned, I make my asymmetric fins with some added toe in in the box, say 1.3-1.5 degrees more (as well as some cant/splay). A standard flat inside surf style fin need around 3 degrees in total. I personally ONLY use fcs style surf fins in my boards and have around 15 different sets with different toe and splay and character so I can play around and fine tune individual boards to my liking. To understand why toe in is such an effective variable, you need to understand the hydrodynamics of a turn. At turn initiation, you g from pushing the windward rail to pushing the leeward rail and the flow need to change direction around the fins, the tail NEEDs to start slip outwards a little and THEN the inner fin starts to engage. Toe in sets the point at which this engagement happens. If you run a more powerful front fin, you often want a smidgen of more toe to avoid the power of the inner front fin to create a hickup in the turn when it engages. I often run full size surf two setups with a trailer. That would be impossible without toe in because botom turn initiation would be super sensitive. But with proper toe you can still get a smooth initiation and then an amazing type of hold in the top turn which is really cool in slower wave conditions.

that would be great...in fact...in my opinion all boards should carry out some fins instructions for use.
I think the sailor weight is also important.
table type. sailor weight.. then it does not mean that this is definitive, each one can adjust based on where he sailing and personal preferences.
the year of the model boards can also be interesting... volume distribution and edges sometimes changes, but it is already too much tuning

Wouldn't describe myself as a wave sailor. When I'm in the surf its smaller.

Have a bunch of different fins, surfboard fins, assy fins, windsurf fins I use and boards with no toe through to lots of toe. Quads, thrusters, 2+1 and singles. Have a simmer quantum v1 too.

Everyone will have their own take on this and I respect that but It's gonna take a big shift for me to accept adding toe makes fins faster.

Surf fins due to their super light construction (in comparison with windsurf fin rtm technology) are much more sensitive when they get in contact with the shore or the rocks.

www.wsurf.eu/dual-tab-type-i-fins-to-minituttle-adaptor-set-3-toe-in-angle/

"production boards are for one and for all"
Or in other words production boards are for the mythical average person, who doesn't actually exist, except in some marketing spreadsheet.

Hahaha....I've heard it all now !!!!

Here is a direct link to the K4 Toe in Calculator that Madge mentioned.

www.k4fins.com/fin-toe-angle-calculator/

you put 12cm k4 fins ? flex model?
If you are happy with that configuration...perfect...I didn't like big straight front fins...for my.. don't works well in gives

I wish flikka offered futures bases. Same with tectonics. They have some fins I'd like to try

my current go to fins are from mark stone. I have a quad set from him which are hands down best fins I've ever used. He seems to have nailed the flex and thickness. They feel slippery fast and always maintain control. Not sure if the starboard version are the same.

santi4 said..
Why do most series wave boards come out without enough toe in?

I'm going to comment here because these discussions usually drive me nuts.
It's way too easy to jump down the toe in rabbit hole.
There are simpler ways of looking at toe in, and they are more based on common sense.


1) Fins have to work with the board shape, and what works for one design is rarely transferable to another.
2) The obsession with toe in started with surf boards, and we windsurfers tend to forget our boards have to blast in a straight line and to jump, as well as to turn on the wave face.
3) Toe in can help a board turn, but too much toe in causes drag that reduces your straight line speed. If you are not planing on the way out anyway, then maybe straight line speed doesn't matter to you.
4) The fin placement is thus a compromise based on hull shape and on what the sailor wants to do. Some hull shapes do not need toe in for the fin boxes, whereas some do.
5) You can experiment with toe in to suit your local conditions by using fins set with an offset in the fin head, but normally this is just 1-3 degrees and no more. The way we sail our boards - often crabbing sideways even at speed - that small angle of difference is actually difficult to notice. This is why most production boards have no toe in - or else the boxes are only offset by about 1 degree.
6) For sure, asymmetric fins need to be set with a couple of degrees of toe in just to get them 'neutral'. So they might look cool, but maybe you're not actually sailing with any true toe in. The argument against using assym fins is that where the board is sailed flat the lift from one of the two fins is not help helpful and creates unwanted drag. This is why production boards are not supplied with assym fins.
7) Some companies claim that all waveboards must have toe in - but that's just their marketing, or else only true for their own design shapes. Toe in has become part of gang or a club that you are expected to join.
8) Like most wave sailors I don't spend much time measuring or fiddling with the toe in of my fins or fin boxes, because the board either works or it doesn't. If it doesn't work straight out of the box then your board is probably a duff design. Perhaps readers here might like to name any recent boards they felt didn't work with the fins provided. I can't think of any.
9) If you are finding your board does not turn easily, or indeed feels stiff and wants to track in a straight line, then this is usually because you have way too much fin area in the back of the board. Fit some shorter fins before you play with toe in.
10) If you are having issues with spinout, this is rarely anything to do with your fins and certainly nothing to do with toe in. (Shift your harness lines back on the boom, and maybe set the deckplate 3cms further back in the mast track.)
11) If you are one of those people who care about toe in and fin kant more than you care about the quality of the wave or the wind strength, then I'd suggest you have your priorities misplaced.

Opining is free... but it is better to provide experience information to help everyone,,, sure there are people with more experience here

sometimes it's a question of time and experience... maybe living in places without much wind requires a little more research... but when as in my case... a small change transforms a small cross shore wave session with my production boring board plenty of all-round volume on a magical front side day. It's then when I consider and get excited again with windsurfing
... I think everything is already invented... just finding that board with the magical combination that it works for you...and then..if you can...customize based on it...that's very difficult with serial boards
...maybe there are people who just want to spend some time in the water...and it's totally respectable...I don't earn my living with this...but it gives me a lot of life

Basher said..

Bahser - once you've spent all that money flying to SA .... and you've lined up that dream $$$ wave .... do you want to be bouncing out of your first bottom turn losing the rail .... ? ......

in answer to 11) - a quality set-up - lets you access quality moments on quality waves (and not blow precious turns when you actually get a wave in SA without 10 people on it) .... wether its holding your rail big bottom turn .... pushing to go more vert to hit a lip ..... or setting a nice rail carve off the top .... if your using sym fronts no TOE this is all way harder than with nice toed fronts

If you can't feel the difference - you are likely 'sailing' your board down the line .... passive style ..... playing safe with body positioning .... positioning your body over the board at all times , and NEVER exerting any force in your waveriding ---- ( why maybe - because anything else more expansive has historically bounced you out at the wrong moment with that s^&t stock setup .... ) .... food for thought....

Well I haven't been to Cape Town for a while but you make an interesting point.
And I suspect the perfect board set up for one location in Cape Town wouldn't be the best set up at another beach a few miles down the road.
Adapting body stance to the wave on offer will certainly be more important than changing toe in by 1 degree.
Having a board with a different rocker line, or more tail kick would also make far more difference to the sailor who is skilled enough to notice.

But the real point is that every session is different, and your favourite board at one spot might not be the best at another, or on another day. Most of us, when finding a windy and wavey spot, want to maximise our time on the water, and fiddling with fins is almost another hobby. Far better to sail the board in one setting and get your muscle memory attuned to it. Only when you have done that should you consider tweaking fin set ups.


If you have ever borrowed someone else's gear you also know that different sailors have different preferences in their set ups, and I just don't believe that changing fin toe in by 1 degree will make a noticeable difference to a board that is already working well in the right hands.

What I do often notice with other people's gear is that some prefer a lot more fin area than I use, and that must limit the board's turning ability way more than a toe in issue.
In rare cases we might find the fin placement just not working with the board - but I haven't had that problem with a production board for many years.
What we do find is that a fellow windsurfer might complain that their board is draggy or slow to plane - and at that point they might start to talk about toe in - because it has become the fashion to blame your fins. That is usually a misdiagnosis of the problem when the true issue is often that they are on too small a board, or else their technique is not active enough to 'pop' a wave board that has proper tail kick.


Apologies to those who found my earlier list sarcastic. I guess it's always going to sound patronising when listing points that way, but that's how my thinking process works.

Basher - 1 deg is noticeable - 3 degrees is a different planet ( and YES a big difference) .... ONCE your board is tuned in to its best set-up , I would argue it works best for everything side off to side on ....

Think the sarcasm is when you make comments that folks interested in finding their best set-up are somehow 'anoraks' , who would rather mess about with fins than actually sail ..... (btw - if your after wave quality - SA is NOT the place) . Body positioning is important in wave riding - AS IS A BLOODY GOOD SET - UP . I would wager Ive sailed a stack more board than you Basher -in conditions way more challenging - where **** set-ups get found out really quick - and yes - in 99% of cases - all the boards have worked 60% !!! of their potential with stock set-ups - (no doubt because the front boxes are so OFF with straight angles ! )

And your point re fave boards not working elsewhere , once a good shape and set-up work - they work at alot / most spots - look at Marc Pares interview where he's using a custom bottom shape on a grip EVERYWHERE - and he has kai hopf designed g10 toed canted assys .... and they give him extra grip / squirt in his turns that he loves - and allow him way more agressive body positioning ...