completely agree with you.

Doggerland said..
we have to stay scientifically correct and recognize the potential skewing of these user findings by (non-discernible with the naked eye) 0.01-0.09 degree toe-in ranges

0.01 degrees of toe in with mini tuttle front fins for example (the boxes are 90 mm long) would mean you should be able to measure 0.0314 mm difference in the distance between the front of the boxes compared to the distance between the back of the boxes. I'd say this does get pretty scientific for sure. But an one degree angle would already result in 3.14 mm difference, and that would be quite easy to measure and notice. Not always by naked eye though.

How will this work?

side boxes have zero toe. Center is 17 cm. Sides are K4 Incinerator 15.5 cm.

The side fins are very flexible compared to the center fin.

The OEM fins are 21 cm center and 11 cm sides. That felt like a single fin, so I'm eager to try something else. There's wind forecast for this coming Friday so I hope to try it then.

The smallest US box fin I have is a Black Project 14.5 cm. I'll try that as a trailer. I tried a scorcher 16 cm as the center but the board just went sideways. I think 3 flexible fins is not enough fin for me. I hope having a stiff fin in the center will be better than a flexible fin in the center.

I used a trailer 92 with 15.5 and 11. Was brilliant onshore. Was a wider tail than that though

Cut that 14.5 down to 11 ish and you could well love that board

From the True Ames website

TOE:
Relevant to all types of side fins, toe is basically how much the side fins are pointed in towards the stringer. In other words, it is the measurement of the angle between the line that runs parallel to the stringer and the line that runs parallel to the base of the fin. If these two lines are parallel, the fin has no toe, or in other words they are pointed straight forward. Often fins will be "toed-in" by a few degrees, which results in enhanced control and maneuverability, fins with no toe maximize speed by causing the least amount of resistance to water flow.CANT:
Cant is a measurement of how much a fin leans out towards the rail of the board. Or more precisely, how many degrees away from perpendicular to the bottom of the board the fin is. As a rule of thumb, center fins have no cant, and side fins have a few degrees of cant. However, there are some side fins that feature no cant. No cant on your side fins maximizes speed by causing the least amount of resistance to water flow, while some cant on your side fins will give you more control, especially during turns.Back to Choose The Right Fin

Gestalt said..
Great episode Well worth the watch. Really enjoyed it. Probably one of the best resources online, But...

-1sc

Is the but that according to Marc pare asymmetric toed fins are faster than symmetric straight fins?
:-) did make me laugh anyway.

I like the idea and term that wavefins should "drift". Never thought about that.

Gestalt said..

sheddweller said..

Gestalt said..
Great episode Well worth the watch. Really enjoyed it. Probably one of the best resources online, But...

-1sc

Is the but that according to Marc pare asymmetric toed fins are faster than symmetric straight fins?
:-) did make me laugh anyway.

sorry for the delayed response. been offline for a bit..

the "But" part. Not to take away from how exceptional Marc is on the water.
and, not to stop shooting from the hip now,

But,
i'm running with either there was a general misunderstanding around the differences between Foil and Toe In
OR
the guys simply failed to articulate the differences.

Suspect it was the former as to their defense there was a consensus they weren't fully across foils.

Either way, it appeared to me that the ideas being attributed to foils should have been attributed to Toe In. Worthwhile watching again and where they use the world symmetry apply the words no toe and where they use the word asymmetrical just replace that with toe in.

End of the day it's Toe-in that makes a board turn differently or feel twitchy in a straight line or draggy. not saying asymmetrical foils don't contribute but those traits occur with symmetrical fins toed as much as asymmetrical fins toed.

Point being, if you toe the fins in to improve certain attributes then asymmetric foils are used to reduce the drag created by toeing the fins in. The foil is then chosen to suit the AOA / the Toe.

Marc's fins that were asymmetrical were also toe'd in. I'd love to have a set of his front fins to try. I've got some of the fins he has but as is obvious i don't seem to be able to get the same level of performance out of them. that said they are pretty exceptional fins.

Puts to bed the conversation around why production boards don't have toe in. it's simply not needed. just buy fins with toe. The fin manufacturers will have applied the correct foil to suit the Toe. For those that want no toe, just go stock.

Be interested to see the guys do a part 2 of this video with someone like Kai Hopf.

Try the Tribal asymmetric fronts...
They are in 3 degrees with flat(isch) insides and with thin base and very flexy tip.
I helped develop them and maybe thats why i am a bit colored in my opinion but to be honest i think there is not much on the market available that is better.
They are also on the Bruch boards.
The 3 degrees toe in fronts are still not yet online but they have them so if you want the 3 degrees just email them before ordering


www.tribalwindsurfing.com/products/sides-asy

There flat inside but the leading edge is a bit rounded but if you want something else you can ask because they can built anything just e-mail and ask.
They have several different options.
For me and my boards I like the symmetric fronts especially in the smaller sizes like 9cm and the asymmetric fronts in 10cm and I prefer the 3 degrees toed in.
They feel free and lose with no drag at all but it depends on what board you use I guess.
On straight boxes I didn't liked the 1.8 degrees protos I had of the Assy fronts but tryed a in a friend's Goya board and he liked them very much. My feeling is that the Assy fronts with flat inside need more toe in.
The smaller sizes are extremely flexy for example my symmetric 9 cm are way more flexy in the top then any K4 or other brand.
The bigger you go the thicker and less flexy the will be offcourse.
They give a really special feeling but be aware they are radical feeling fins and really ment for waveriding.
We've been working on them alot and tryed many things before getting the model in production. Even the bigger fronts can be used as quad backs when you want something more extreme.
We are now working on more thicker and more powered onshore quad backs or twin fins like the K4 Leon model.
But we only started that yet so that will take a while.
If it's up to me I would love to also have something like the KS (Kauli) fins, narrow and swept back quad backs just to compare it to our current backs but don't knowing Peter is up to this and is willing to draw them for the CNC machine.
Plenty of plans.

again if you want to order be aware they are are pretty radical in the normal size as they feel small (which I personally love)
Same for the center fin which can be used as quad backs or as thruster center fin and also that one is thin and narrow at the base and in the smaller sizes very flexy in the top. for example the 16cm is still very flexy and when you go longer they will become thicker and stiffer. The smaller sizes are more radical.
And if you can't find them on the web site just email them with your question.

martR said..
There flat inside ...

Nice work MartR

Taavi said..
What an interesting and heated topic.

But my production thruster has nearly no toe-in, and it works beautifully in my real-world conditions, with stock fins.

Mentioned above that my Quatro Pyramid 77 (thruster, year 2020/21) does not have any toe in. Measured the new Pyramid 81 L now, and it has ca 1.5 degrees of toe in. Haven't sailed it yet, because of no wind and waves. Can't wait.

I was thinking the toed in symmetric fins would be good for people with toed in boxes who want to try no toe.
put the left in right and vice versa.

Taavi said..

Taavi said..
What an interesting and heated topic.

But my production thruster has nearly no toe-in, and it works beautifully in my real-world conditions, with stock fins.

Mentioned above that my Quatro Pyramid 77 (thruster, year 2020/21) does not have any toe in. Measured the new Pyramid 81 L now, and it has ca 1.5 degrees of toe in. Haven't sailed it yet, because of no wind and waves. Can't wait.

Interesting. Over 10 years ago I measured a Quatro custom which had 2 degrees toe. What fins did it come with? The usual symmetrical or asymmetrical? I see they moved away from the slot boxes after only 2 years. Good move.