Wow. OK...

(1) seabreezer, you are a far better wavesailor than me, I can see that. True, I do mean it.

(2) In this thread, to my knowledge there are only 4 guys who have made boards for a job (regular income). One uses tons of toe and assy, one uses moderate toe, one says he doesn't like it on quads.
I'm kinda in between numbers 2 and 3 and called out number 1 on his theories that no other company has used. You disagree, so what. Love that you have the stoke. However, I will listen to the opinion of others and customer feedback. I also think its very telling that the big companies don't use much toe for all round boards for everyone at different spots - and that was the original question! You posting pics of your 3 customs that you love at your spots does not prove anything.

(3) A shaper / designer being an awesome sailor does not mean great boards, nor the converse - they are not dependent upon one another. My kiteboards are great (I never kited) my speed boards are fast (ditto) and whilst I am more known for making waveboards and FSW work for bigger folks (as I'm 100kg), my 67L waveboard is a ripper. My learners wingfoil is great. My carbon products for rallycars were great in 1999 but I am not a racecar driver. Same as point #2 though - it does not help me prove anything!
Sometimes I do the walk of shame as I'm testing a board way too small for me. Sometimes I'm nuts overpowered as I'm using something too big and abusing it. Its how we learn.
Using your logic of asking me for pics of me sailing - well I could ask you to post pics of boards you made, given this is basically a board design thread. That's just silly though huh. I get plenty of feedback on the stuff I don't ride or the moves I don't perform as well as my customers do them. 4 major injuries to 3 limbs doesn't help though. If a surf shaper only rides mal's now he is old, do you say his shortboards must be crap...?


(4) I called you out on using caps, maybe you don't know its seen as shouting so sorry but you did look a bit overboard with anyone who disagreed. Use caps, use bold, I'm not a moderator so I'll shut up about your chosen formatting. Sorry for saying you go gal. Was outa line.

(5) Please stop sending P.M's about personal stuff and vile accusations to my friends and customers. FFS, its a disagreement about who likes toe-in. No need for it.

Let me know when you're here next I'll give you a board or two to test.

Peace and hope your forthcoming season is good.

sheddweller said..

Gestalt said..
could be +/- 0.25 degree.

watch how Kai rips on this board compared to the other 2 boards he tested. the other 2 boards had more toe. One with significantly more toe.

this board notionally has minimal toe and looks to be on rails through the bottom turn with speed to burn.

yea- thats a load of bollox, i dropped that into cad and you cannot get anything meaningful without at least another couple of photos. toe could be zero or 2 degrees., zoom right in and it all pixelates and you cant pick up an edge. so its a fail for both of you.
here is another image that gives it at 1.4 degrees. its as meaningless and as innacurate as yours




I

Aww dude your dimensions aren't even parallel or perpendicular to the lines.

Go on give it another crack. im sure you can force it anyway you choose.

Measured my Quatro Cube and Severne Pyro, both zero toe. Measured my Flikka, 1 degree toe using the K4 calculator. All 3 boards are awesome.

Fortunately for you sheddweller I know how to get it pretty close, and use cad

Strewth, now theres an argument about who's best on computers.

What is it with everyone on this thread trying to out do each other by being that little bit better and having a go at each other.
Can't we just leave it that some people like a bit of toe and some don't.

Personally I like a bit of Camel toe......

Still the thread makes great reading but probably for the wrong reasons. Some of us dream of having conditions consistent enough that we could start tweaking the gear to that level of detail.

Toe in Tassie style.

santi4 said..

sheddweller said..

Gestalt said..
Fortunately for you sheddweller I know how to get it pretty close, and use cad

Haha, :-) cad, that's amazing well done! You should be proud of your achievement!
Then take your pretty picture find the mid point of your 2 transverse lines at the front and rear of the boxes and draw a line between them.
Then extrapolate this new line fore and aft and look where it ends up? It is not on the Centreline of the board
You could also take an aligned dimension between these 2 midpoints and pull it sideways, it will look exactly like my picture for the same reason.
There is no meaningful measurement to be made from this photo. It could be zero or 2 degrees of toe in on the box,s.
That's before we get into the pixelation issue.
You are guessing.

I have not done it behind the computer
I have had this board in 88 liters. The standard one with MT and straight boxes... not that custom one with us box front fins...(better). I was +18 liters over my weight...in low wind conditions...with 2nd TOE IN 12+14 the board is pure surf...to test the difference I have also tested 12cm without convergence (normal straight boxes the same as the 10 serial) the table was different... maybe if you never try...

wait, So you're saying you've never designed and built a board.

honestly without realizing it.
..some are contaminating this post without contributing anything
...just subtracting.
..and perhaps this may be one of the few informations on the web about windsurfing fins toe in settings...in the future it may be of use to Many people

@gestalt - you have a shapers eye - yet can't see with the naked eye that pic those channels are Toed , and the side fins take the same line .. ? more than 1deg ??????

@MarkA

(5) Please stop sending P.M's about personal stuff and vile accusations to my friends and customers. FFS, its a disagreement about who likes toe-in. No need for it.

You don't like people making assumptions about you ?) .... well don't make them about every other dude on here ... take the point ...
Ive NEVER shaped a board - but - last year I sailed 26 different boards in the year (incl protos etc) - and not for a quick hour - but up and down the beach - fin tweaks - usually over many sessions - until Im happy Ive seen the best performance ... And every board Ive jumped on the last 15 years - ive taken detailed measurements , 30/ofo/60/90/120etc , tuck , concaves , depths , rockerline , box placement ,thickness , basically everything etc etc to try and tease out cause and effect ... and then , fin notes so I get to a point where .... I never touch the set-up in a board ever again ....

@MarkA - How many boards you sail in a given year ? .... being a shaper .... ?

You call out people 'brand whore' - you have no idea what my loyalties are ... ? in the assy thread , I clearly said Kt's assy looked 'not the best ' under the feet of Juban , you take part bits of info and launch assumptions al the time ...I have a bunch of different brands in my quiver - I have some production boards that are so tuned in that I love as much as my fave custom KT - so much so ive grabbed back-ups of them ..... I don't love a Quatro because its 'fashionable' ' core' or whatever - the respect is earned when you grab a 'Levi' copy - and it is just fckn incredible ..... 'butter' in every moment .... every push , body angulation , whip , angle whatever - ridiculously spontaneous and intuitive ....ie a 'magic' board ... the other 2 are not quite as good as the Levi copy - but still very nice , point is - no blind worship - just full respect for KT and his work with Levi etc

For the record MarkA -IF your secret set-up is virtually straight boxes or 1 deg with flat insides assy - I tried that out on literally 'day 1 of starting testing assy / toe / can't back in 2011 ........ , 12 years ago .... and it got binned pretty quick , in favour of variations of 3deg and cant ......

btw - Bouke/ witchie was pretty open with his set-ups - yet you guard yours ??? (and I would argue he is probably selling more boards than you )

Peace ....

philn said..
Measured my Quatro Cube and Severne Pyro, both zero toe. Measured my Flikka, 1 degree toe using the K4 calculator. All 3 boards are awesome.

I think there's something about the pyro / nano clusters IMO that might not suit TOE or ASSY ,.... they're quite 'tight' and in line ... and the flow might get a bit complex unless straight and symms .... so Im fully with you on that ... (and seen numerous examples lots pro's epic turns on say nano)

random - but - something like say the new starboard hyper - turny front fins (TOE/CANT) might make something like that rail taper / cluster spacing - too turny / lack drive off the top .... ULTRA likes TOE / k4

Rango said..
The AI's have been the most noticeable change for my quad
after doing every other tune with the stock setup to improve turning.
Thanks Steve from k4 for help with sizing .

did you go 1 or 2 deg ? ...

1 degree 9's in a 1.5 degree box.

seabreezer said..

Rango said..
The AI's have been the most noticeable change for my quad
after doing every other tune with the stock setup to improve turning.
Thanks Steve from k4 for help with sizing .

did you go 1 or 2 deg ? ...

Wind Smurf said..
I don't know if a side fin will do anything to my board as its got a fairly deep mono concave in the tail from under the front strap right off the tail.

Its pretty sluggish to get the tail to release, been using 10cm Black projects with either a 25cm maui ultra fin or a 22cm onshore wave fin which seems to work better.

Any ideas ?????? Quite like the idea of the A.I fins as they dont seem as chunky as the Ezzy's.

A 25 /22 cm fin is huge for a multi fin ,I would personally use a 16 and 10s in a thruster but I'm 72kg.Reducing rear fin size will certainly help with tail release before messing around with fronts.

Rango said..

Wind Smurf said..
I don't know if a side fin will do anything to my board as its got a fairly deep mono concave in the tail from under the front strap right off the tail.

Its pretty sluggish to get the tail to release, been using 10cm Black projects with either a 25cm maui ultra fin or a 22cm onshore wave fin which seems to work better.

Any ideas ?????? Quite like the idea of the A.I fins as they dont seem as chunky as the Ezzy's.

A 25 /22 cm fin is huge for a multi fin ,I would personally use a 16 and 10s in a thruster but I'm 72kg.Reducing rear fin size will certainly help with tail release before messing around with fronts.

I'm 92kg and usually using 5.8m sail and quite a side rip too. I'd just go sideways with a 16cm fin, board is 113 litres too.

Wind Smurf said..

Rango said..

Wind Smurf said..
I don't know if a side fin will do anything to my board as its got a fairly deep mono concave in the tail from under the front strap right off the tail.

Its pretty sluggish to get the tail to release, been using 10cm Black projects with either a 25cm maui ultra fin or a 22cm onshore wave fin which seems to work better.

Any ideas ?????? Quite like the idea of the A.I fins as they dont seem as chunky as the Ezzy's.

A 25 /22 cm fin is huge for a multi fin ,I would personally use a 16 and 10s in a thruster but I'm 72kg.Reducing rear fin size will certainly help with tail release before messing around with fronts.

I'm 92kg and usually using 5.8m sail and quite a side rip too. I'd just go sideways with a 16cm fin, board is 113 litres too.

Ok , so you could increase the front fin size to reduce the rear which will be locking that tail in.Its all a balance though depending on what you want out of your board.