LeStef said...

One important aspect is also in the materials used now and how those films stay dry compared to the old stuff which would weigh a ton after being wet.

The real old stuff, twenty or more years old, was made out of Dacron and Mylar. Did I post anything about wave sailing? Isn't the subject of the thread , POWER? Old sails with camber inducers are more powerful than the new especially when they are built with power in mind. Camber induced sails are also stable in gusts compared to wave sails. What part of pertinence does the uneducated not understand?

Quote. 'What part of pertinence does the uneducated not understand?'

a) I'm older than you. (72.)
b)I'm considerably more experienced than you in matters pertaining to the sea. (Surfing, kayaking, sailing catamarans and windsurfing. first started 1966 when bought my first wet suit kit.)
c) I'm a retired professional who (though I say so myself) was not unsuccessful in his chosen career.

I don't give a toss what you may think of me ( you are an irrelevance) but I DO mind what others may think of me. Hence the justification.

Through your activities on practically every forum known to man, your lack of qualifications in the university of life are apparent to all! As I said to you on Boards forum (more in sadness than anger) 'as things stand you are simply detested!'

This message IS in anger. GO AND BOIL YOUR HEAD!

Well said Alistair. I didn't bother with his 'facts'. He contradicts himself so frequently that I can't keep up.

I think what IRL 250 was referring to was speed at the higher end of a sails wind range. (He's a sponsored sailor.)

In that case twist leech sails are much more efficient, faster and, as you say jtw, much less draggy at speed. The top may be flappy but it seems to be necessary to reach higher speeds.

I always found tight leech sails to have an inbuilt speed limiter, and damned uncomfortable to use when overpowered. The fact that size for size they were more pully lower down the wind scale was less of a benefit.

It would be very interesting if somebody was to do an extended test of good old v. good new in a variety of conditions, on both long and short boards.(My favourite tight leeched sails used to be 1) Tushingham Project-mylar- 5.0. 2) Hotwave Speedline 7.4, on short and long boards respectively.)

Mrgob said...

Well said Alistair. I didn't bother with his 'facts'. He contradicts himself so frequently that I can't keep up.

Cheers mate, it annoys me when he spouts so much crap. Most people know that he hasn't got a clue what he is talking about but if some one is new to the sport they would think he was given them good advice hense the reason why i have to answer to his posts

Mrgob said...

Quote. 'What part of pertinence does the uneducated not understand?'

a) I'm older than you. (72.)
b)I'm considerably more experienced than you in matters pertaining to the sea. (Surfing, kayaking, sailing catamarans and windsurfing. first started 1966 when bought my first wet suit kit.)
c) I'm a retired professional who (though I say so myself) was not unsuccessful in his chosen career.

I don't give a toss what you may think of me ( you are an irrelevance) but I DO mind what others may think of me. Hence the justification.

Through your activities on practically every forum known to man, your lack of qualifications in the university of life are apparent to all! As I said to you on Boards forum (more in sadness than anger) 'as things stand you are simply detested!'

This message IS in anger. GO AND BOIL YOUR HEAD!

Posting this personal attack doesn't change the fact that you must be an idiot!!! What makes you think that you know more about the sea than I do? Do you know anything about my background? My mother's maiden name is Murrin which is Gaelic for >>People of the Sea<< for starters. I do hope no one out there actually takes you seriously in your arrogance.

Rubby said...

Mrgob said...

Quote. 'What part of pertinence does the uneducated not understand?'

a) I'm older than you. (72.)
b)I'm considerably more experienced than you in matters pertaining to the sea. (Surfing, kayaking, sailing catamarans and windsurfing. first started 1966 when bought my first wet suit kit.)
c) I'm a retired professional who (though I say so myself) was not unsuccessful in his chosen career.

I don't give a toss what you may think of me ( you are an irrelevance) but I DO mind what others may think of me. Hence the justification.

Through your activities on practically every forum known to man, your lack of qualifications in the university of life are apparent to all! As I said to you on Boards forum (more in sadness than anger) 'as things stand you are simply detested!'

This message IS in anger. GO AND BOIL YOUR HEAD!

Posting this personal attack doesn't change the fact that you must be an idiot!!! What makes you think that you know more about the sea than I do? Do you know anything about my background? My mother's maiden name is Murrin which is Gaelic for >>People of the Sea<< for starters. I do hope no one out there actually takes you seriously in your arrogance. Then again, if you are 72, your posting definitely illustrates the adage that there's no fool like an old fool. However, I do appreciate the fact that you are reading my material.

You're the idiot brucie for the crap you post under multiple personalities on forums world wide. You have time and time again let us know you don't have a clue what you are talking about and believe me that we never take you seriously in your arrogance, Your the old fool brucie, get a life and stop annoying us

And the comments made against you are from your personal attacks against Mr Gob and other people on the Boards forum, you started it. Funny how you can hide behind the computer screen with all the personal attacks you make towards people. Would be a different matter if you were to meet us face to face i bet

Rubby said...

Mrgob said...

Quote. 'What part of pertinence does the uneducated not understand?'

Etc etc

Posting this personal attack doesn't change the fact that you must be an idiot!!!

Hang on - you called him uneducated and now you accuse him of personal attack !!?????

You surely are in the running for idiot of the century Brucie.

I love the bit where you say you don't like him but enjoy the fact he is reading your posts. That seems to be admission of your trolling - you have nothing to contribute but like the fact people pay attention even if it is negative attention.

LeStef said...

wow, I just checked this post today after 6 days and there was lots of controversy...

I was just saying that there is no point of having an old sail that is more powerful and weighs 5 Kg more ! (and not lbs, what are lbs anyway?).

We all are just people who enjoy the sea...

Well, my old-style 6m weighs 2 kg when dry, and it's normally dry. So it starts off being over 2kg lighter than a specialist "lightweight" 6.5 like the NP Helium.

And given that I spend a lot of time using the things, I'm pretty sure that they would not pick up anything like that extra 2+kg when wet. Moreover, an older outline can have less area (and therefore less weight) up high where it exerts more leverage and therefore can affect handling more.

Now, I'm NOT saying this old-style sail has anything like the top end speed or handling of a modern 6. However, it's definitely got shedloads more light-wind power than a modern 6.

That may not suit everyone, but it does suit some of us for our specialised uses (in this case, a longboard normally sailing in lighter and fluky winds).

I've spoken to a professional in the field of sailing performance prediction and testing. He jokes about the fact that years ago, he was running sail testing sails for a major sailmaker. For fun and interest, they put an original Windsurfer sail in the testing and found that it actually produced much more lift (for area) than any of the modern sails!

All this stuff seems to fit in pretty well with the information produced by the guys who spend millions testing stuff for yacht racing, and with the theorists who were involved with the America's Cup wing and aircraft designs. The basics of aerodynamical physics haven't changed, as far as I know - a deeper more cambered shape still produces more lift but at the expense of higher drag. Check it out at an airliner near you!

Gestalt said...

Flipper11 said...

The new sails are all designed by all the top PWA windsurfers who windsurf in maui every day. So they are designed around those conditions. The are not designed for on shore gusty conditions, wich if you windsurf in the city you can experiance alot. when i found this out, i only new of one sail, that was idea for where i sail, and that was a 5.4 neil pryde alpha wave sail, wich has turned out to be my fav sail now, and thats all i use most the time. The only thing is there not very strong, and its allready showing signs, that its nearly ready for the bin, and it's a 09 model.

Most of the sails out there now on the market are so flat it's a joke.

Hey Rubby ( brucie ) where abouts do you windsurf in america?? how old a you really dude??

jeez, flipper there isn't much in that that i agree with.

explain my friend

If there is cosensus it's that a modern well designed 'old' sail has a valid role in specific applications. The disagreement is about the upper wind range.

I'm not convinced however, that a modern loose leeched sail (7.0 for example) can't easily be pumped up onto the plane in iffy conditions. It always can be on my Kona.

Nobody disputes that a tighter leech sail, beating upwind with dagger down, will get there first. for racing that sail makes perfect sense.

What I can't understand is the weight issue. In my experience the impression of weight comes not from the sail mast and boom dead weight, but from the way the sail harnesses and utilizes the power. Two rigs of the same weight can feel very different indeed, especially when well powered.

We never used to worry about rig weight in the days of big multi cammed sails setting on huge epoxy masts.(Unless it was a dead calm on a bouncy sea that is, when you lost half a ton of sweat!)

I still wish that unbiased experts would thoroughly test a pair of modern 'old' and loose leech sails in a large range of conditions. My yardstick (for cruising) would be ease of use and comfort. I want to know if I'm missing something.

^ what he said,

i think most manufacturers woke up several years ago that sails designed for perfect places don't sell and aren't user friendly.

i could list numerous sails that have plenty of draft and not just the NP. as mark pointed out, sail manufacturers build flat and full wave sails.

i'm very certain the sails i use don't fit into your category also.

fish and chips anyone

Um, doesn't just about every brand have a power wave for onshore and a flat DTL sail?

Are you seriously suggesting that until the NP Alpha there was no good onshore oriented sail? Not even the NP Search that it replaced?

Flipper11 said...

Mark _australia said...

Flipper11 said...

Gestalt said...

Flipper11 said...

The new sails are all designed by all the top PWA windsurfers who windsurf in maui every day. So they are designed around those conditions. The are not designed for on shore gusty conditions, wich if you windsurf in the city you can experiance alot. when i found this out, i only new of one sail, that was idea for where i sail, and that was a 5.4 neil pryde alpha wave sail, wich has turned out to be my fav sail now, and thats all i use most the time. The only thing is there not very strong, and its allready showing signs, that its nearly ready for the bin, and it's a 09 model.

Most of the sails out there now on the market are so flat it's a joke.

Hey Rubby ( brucie ) where abouts do you windsurf in america?? how old a you really dude??

jeez, flipper there isn't much in that that i agree with.

explain my friend

You said all the new sails are only tested in Maui or designed for Maui conditions so they are no good for gusty / real world conditions

Hang on, explain to me the variation wave sails from the gutless light handling flat bladey ones, thru to the power wave sails designed for onshore?

Well thease are sails that i call power wave sails:

The neil pryde fire fly and alpha sails, most of the gaastra wave sails and the new naish wave sails, seem to have alot of power. Another brand too is the sailworks Hucker designed totally by dale cook is really powerfull.

And yes, i think the NP Alpha, when it first came out, was the only sail properly tested, for on shore conditions like in the Uk or pozo

Well firstly the Hucker is a bump and jump sail and not a wave sail. Secondly it was designed totally in the Gorge and not on Maui like you said in an earlier comment where you sais all sails are designed and tested on maui.

Have you forgotten totally about KA Sails ?? As far as i know most the testing done for these sails is in Australia

Not all sails are designed and tested in Maui

I love brucie, he is da man old diggers rock on