I was told by 2 prominent people in this sport, who shall remain nameless, that I can hold down a larger modern sail than an older one...'old' say in my case 18-20 years ago. But what wasn't explained was how much power they provide and for arguments sake an old pointy top 7.0 has the same power as a 6.5 in a flat top?

Can someone explain, and for my education, how this is achieved? Let's use a 6.0m no cam sail from both eras, I use this size as from memory most larger sails than a 6.0 were fully battened with cams.

For example, does the twist off at the top of the sail (flat top) soften the gusts and spills excess air therefore one would be able to hold down a larger sail in comparison? Is the more modern sail from around 10 years ago to now offer the same amount of power but just more comfortable and easier to use?

my opinion - i'd agree with NotWal. The older sails seem to be punchier in the low end and have quite good acceleration, but not-so-good stability in the gusts (therefore less range). As you suggested, I believe this all comes down to the floppy-leech tech that has become standard in most sails in the last ten years.

With the older sails, without the ability for the leech to twist off in gusts forces the sail to absorb the wind ultimately deforming the draft. Centre of effort moves back and it's a fight to keep the sail balanced.

This is an uneducated guess, but I think the extra (low-end) power the older sails seem to have is in the cut; favouring deeper drafts and fatter sections under the mast.

I have recently changed from 15 year old sails to recent ones.
The recent ones are much nicer to sail, have a wider wind range and are much more stable in gusts but are less powerful per square metre than the old ones.
I would think you'd need to add .5m in size to a new sail to get the same power as an older one. ie 5m old sail = 5.5m new sail ( .5m is in the square top for spilling the excess power and does not contribute to forward drive.)

Regarding sail types on Konas. I tried old v. new, just to find out.


For recreational fun sailing, new (twist top) sails work with no problem. A 6.0 Tushy Storm and 7.0 Tushy Thunderbird give excellent planing performance in appropriate wind strengths. They add to that 'short board feel' once up and blasting, and retain modern sail forgiving characteristics in the gusts.

Old sails have more grunt in marginal conditions, and may help if racing, but otherwise the new sails FEEL better once up and blasting, and isn't that why people still like long boards?

Quite so jtw, but for recreational sailing on a Kona, especially in planing conditions, loose leech sails put a bigger smile on my face!

To answer your question look at the evolution, alot of it focuses on race sail technology since that has been the "cutting edge" with the technology flowing down to other sails. Generalising-

Old sails (pre 1990):
Long luffs
Tight leeches
Often full profiles controlled with lots of outhaul
Flexible fibreglass battens

These sails had the power high up in the sail which helped lift heavy boards out of the water. Quite narrow wind ranges but size for size extended their range lower (6m comparable to a 7m circa 1995 sail). Produced fantastic catapults [}:)]

1990-1995:
Long luffs
Very loose leeches
Shallow static profile, lots of negative outhaul to get some fullness into the sail
Very stiff carbon tube/rod battens (they broke lots) or crap fibreglass battens
Very stiff carbon masts (460's up around imcs 28)
2d seam shaping- lots of flat sail panels stitched together that were forced into shape by the wind

Explosion of the loose leech- lots of static twist (loose material that twists away) terrible bottom end but great top end. Kind of a transition period with freeride sails alot of the freeride sails used old sail technology or loose leech technology so they were either bottom end oriented or top end oriented. Alot of the sails from this period felt very stiff and sometimes a bit twitchy.

1995-1999:
Long luffs
Better understanding of dynamic twist but erring towards loose leech
Better understanding of seam shaping via 3d and broadseam
Great battens lots of carbon and quite durable
Masts became a bit softer

Most sails from this period were loose leeched still quite shallow profiled including freeride and wavesails. Generally top ended sails with a bit better bottom end/more forgiving than before.

1999-2004:
Short luffs (fat heads/flat tops)
Continuation of seam/twist understanding
100% carbon masts

1999 the pwa went big, lots of 10m+ sails. Shortly afterwards slalom died, thankfully formula was there to take it's place in sail development. The focus was on making big sails work in more wind with better handling. Still lots of quite flat sail profiles but some freeride sails going quite deep in profile to get good bottom end with the loose leech. Unfortunately alot of sails were made to a cost in this period also with alot of crap monofilm/materials used and a step backwards in battens.

New sails-
Shorter luff
Shorter booms
Better use of seam shaping
Better use of dynamic twist
Fuller profiles down low
Softer and rd masts

Approx 04 speed sailing took off again with lots of money spent on developing the fastest sails possible. From that the ultra wide luffs came back bringing better stability. Graduated luffs and shorter booms give better handling. Shorter luffs keeps the coe lower. All this enables sails to have fuller profiles which gives better bottom end and go in the lulls yet you can pull on the downhaul and the sail wont turn twitchy. The twist focus is to have sails that drive well yet twist off when required. Softer masts give the sail a more alive/forgiving feel.

So yes because of all of the handling benefits you can hold down a larger sail than 15 years ago AND it will also have better bottom end (approaching that of old pre-loose leech sails). Top end is better because the sail drives better through the lulls so you are maintaining a higher average speed.

sboardcrazy said...


Interesting.Funny when I was upgrading I assumed modern ones would be more powerful but it makes sense that if they have a wider wind range they wouldnt be.

Ever since I started researching modern equipment over the last 12 months I wondered why people were using such big square metre numbers on their sails compared to what I remembered. Especially when modern boards have moved their volume behind the mast track! Old thinking says large sails will push the nose down especially on shorter boards if there was no volume up under the mast track to compensate, but in reality it seems that there is a fulcrum point somewhere in front of the front straps that keeps things level. It all makes sense now.

Big sails like an 8.0 was something you used on a racing Div.1 longboard, nowadays people are using the same size on Slalom boards and slalom boards have become shorter! After looking at action shots of high speed sails from front-on I noticed the big "twist off" at the top. First thing I thought was it's spilling air so it's got to be more gentle but how on earth does it maintain power if it's dumping air? This thread has cleared it up and confirmed my suspicion. Thanks again peoples!

I enjoy this brain fodder.

I used to sail a 7.5m back in the 80's.Now my biggest will be 6.6m..maybe I can go bigger....food for thought

Quite right gestie, it was (mis)implied under the continuation of seam and twist technology in that the biggest way I feel the improvements is you have a sail which retains tension and drives well yet twists off when required. It probably does deserve it's own mention since it is the designer's buzz word of the moment.

The others I didn't mention is luff curves, but these have altered in no specific direction. I guess modern high carbon content masts could enable an increased curve (more stability) since they are more responsive.

A designer could probably add a hundred other things, I just sail em I don't make em

I will say though there are some interesting things happening with sail design at the moment. My pryde rs racings surprised the hell out of me when i'd expected a sail which was a bitch to downhaul due to numerous reports of mast failure in the last 5 years. But on getting them found them the easiest to downhaul out of all the modern race sails i've tried - in fact I would say my 7.8 race sail is quite possibly easier to downhaul than my 5.3 wavesail. They do however use stacks of tension through the cam/battens, very different to what the others seem to be doing- I guess all that point loading must torture the masts.

I maintain there is no one single big improvement, more the biggest improvement is all those single (at times unsuccessful) bits coming together to make sails what they are now. Many of the concepts in modern sails had been tried and dropped at some point. In that it is hard to isolate any one thing such as tension keeping the sail stable under load when it's many things that have contributed to that- increased luff curve, better cam systems, stiffer battens, better seam use, better panel shaping etc.

My one critisism of modern sails- the battens are ****. They either break or we are given fibreglass ones where we should be getting carbon

Is racing the ONLY reason to be using long boards? I think not!

I use one (Kona currently) for long distance cruising along cliff lines and around islands. (Safety is an issue so I carry split kayak paddles and have a method of paddling efficiently without derigging if stranded by lack of wind.)

In the 80's early 90's there was no option but to use 'old' tight leech sails, so I very much appreciate the wider wind and comfort zone of modern sails. On an average 20+ mile cruise the wind can flutuate wildly (next to nothing to force6) owing to cliffs or funneling effects down inlets. That's where the greater wind range of modern sails is a safety factor. And that takes precedence over outright speed.

In my opinion the obsession with racing, and the implication that that's all longboards should be for, is a mistake. Cruising is a extra activity for days when short boarding is out. It's a pity nobody tries to 'push' the concept.

Glad you also enjoy long board cruising Jonesmb.

One of the great delights (Scottish Coast, masses of Islands, tiny bays to explore, and big headlands) is unexpectedly coming across stacks with narrow tide race passages to wiggle through. That's when a smaller throwabout 7.0 sail comes into its own. You can stop and play!

On windier open parts the 7.0 readily pops the Kona onto the plane.G.P.S. 23.7 m.p.h. average on windy day. Not record breaking, but so what? I was singing my head off! (I use an 8.0 on light wind days, of course, but windy is more fun.)

mkseven said...


Old sails (pre 1990):
Long luffs
Tight leeches
Often full profiles controlled with lots of outhaul
Flexible fibreglass battens

These sails had the power high up in the sail which helped lift heavy boards out of the water. Quite narrow wind ranges but size for size extended their range lower (6m comparable to a 7m circa 1995 sail). Produced fantastic catapults [}:)]

A few days ago I sailed an old 6.0 World Sail with a heavy older board in conditions that could be described as long lulls with sudden powerful gusts. This definitely was the wrong sail, however I was amazed at how easily the board (33 lbs I believe) was lifted out of the water. This sail has a lot of power for it's size and I believe no less than my modern North Duke 6.9. The correct understanding of handling gusty conditions, though, would be to see that a loose leach alone doesn't make for the best handling. You actually will do best with a cambered sail (yielding a full profile) and a loose leach. My North Sting with no camber inducers and the earliest loose leach (circa '98) tech for them remains one of my most difficult sails to handle in high winds and gusts. Which brings me to your chronology. I really think you don't have the dating correct. However, much depends on the manufacturer. A.R.T. and Ultra Profile went through a different evolution of sail design for instance.

Rubby said...

mkseven said...


Old sails (pre 1990):
Long luffs
Tight leeches
Often full profiles controlled with lots of outhaul
Flexible fibreglass battens

These sails had the power high up in the sail which helped lift heavy boards out of the water. Quite narrow wind ranges but size for size extended their range lower (6m comparable to a 7m circa 1995 sail). Produced fantastic catapults [}:)]

A few days ago I sailed an old 6.0 World Sail with a heavy older board in conditions that could be described as long lulls with sudden powerful gusts. This definitely was the wrong sail, however I was amazed at how easily the board (33 lbs I believe) was lifted out of the water. This sail has a lot of power for it's size and I believe no less than my modern North Duke 6.9. The correct understanding of handling gusty conditions, though, would be to see that a loose leach alone doesn't make for the best handling. You actually will do best with a cambered sail (yielding a full profile) and a loose leach. My North Sting with no camber inducers and the earliest loose leach (circa '98) tech for them remains one of my most difficult sails to handle in high winds and gusts. Which brings me to your chronology. I really think you don't have the dating correct. However, much depends on the manufacturer. A.R.T. and Ultra Profile went through a different evolution of sail design for instance.

More drivel again Brucie

Mrgob said...

Is racing the ONLY reason to be using long boards? I think not!

I use one (Kona currently) for long distance cruising along cliff lines and around islands. (Safety is an issue so I carry split kayak paddles and have a method of paddling efficiently without derigging if stranded by lack of wind.)

I didn't say racing was the only reason to sail longboards. I didn't bring up cruising sails because what people want in them is (as you say) sometimes very diverse. Cruising sails can also be very much a personal taste (probably like wave sails; over the last two days I've used a 2010 wavesail and a C 1999 slalom sail in the waves and they both seemed to have good and bad points).

Ironically, I'm late replying to you because yesterday I was longboard cruising (albiet just for a couple of hours under paddle power because it was a glassout) here....




In the 80's early 90's there was no option but to use 'old' tight leech sails, so I very much appreciate the wider wind and comfort zone of modern sails. On an average 20+ mile cruise the wind can flutuate wildly (next to nothing to force6) owing to cliffs or funneling effects down inlets. That's where the greater wind range of modern sails is a safety factor. And that takes precedence over outright speed.

In my opinion the obsession with racing, and the implication that that's all longboards should be for, is a mistake. Cruising is a extra activity for days when short boarding is out. It's a pity nobody tries to 'push' the concept.

Some of us have been pushing the concept a bit, with articles about longboard cruising on the web and that sort of stuff.

However, IMHO a lot of the stuff I wrote still applies. If you're cruising with a destination of some sort, you often end up going straight upwind or downwind in light winds, and for that a tight leach sail can be great.

Personally, I'm happy with a small old tight-leach sail, because IMHO the greater power they produce for their size allows you to putter along happily with a small sail in light winds, and if the breeze comes in hard you've already got a small sail on. But this sort of stuff can be very personal; I have no great problem with a sail that has a mobile C of E, and I prefer a sail that is lighter and smaller. And I'm normally cruising a board that has a lower top end.

Your taste and situation, of course, may differ and so may your gear.

Yep; it seems like a fantastic place.

I'm trying to work out when we can have a weekend there on the boards. I've got to do some mods so that we can carry camping gear, but it should work out fine.

I haven't gone overnight cruising on a board for a gazillion years and really must do it again.

Thank you for the reply C 249.I wasn't contradicting you since I realise you do 'push' long board usage. I was merely stating my own dissatisfaction at the way long boarding is perceived.

I think that of all the windsurfing I've ever done (since 1982) the long board cruises will forever be burned into my memory. Gallumphing along on a lovely smooth swell, watching the other side visibly nearing as the mast tip carves it's way through a mackeral type sky, is the nearest thing to heaven I'll ever experience!
As you say sir,each to his own way of doing things!