Wavesailing Rules and Right of Way

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Leech
Leech
WA
1933 posts
WA, 1933 posts
7 Feb 2007 10:41am
Surely it's gotta be that if you're doing something that's stuffing up someone else's day then it's the wrong thing to do.

If it's an uncrowded location stall away until your heart's content. But if there are 87 people on every wave then stalling's not gonna go down.
Flipper
Flipper
QLD
34 posts
QLD, 34 posts
7 Feb 2007 12:03pm
Hi all,

1) What do comp rules say about this?
2) I would have thought the sailor upwind has right of way.
3) I would of thought the sailor on the wave first has right of way.
4) Taking from surfing in regard to stalling – What happens if a mal catches the wave first?
5) Coming over the back of the wave is WRONG but what happens if the person further out comes over the wave before the stallers? So what's worse "Over the back" or "Stallers"?
elmo
elmo
WA
8890 posts
WA, 8890 posts
7 Feb 2007 11:19am
quote:
Originally posted by Kremlin

Comrade Elmo
This is exact what I refering to... stall stall letting plenty of wave go through then pick up specific wave... this not just one off event I watch many pro and world champ doing of this manouvere time and time again.
So my question still remaining... is it wrong or right for doing of this if the champs and pros do it ?



Still doesn't make good etiquette.

Some of the Pro's and comp crew I've seen in both surfing and sailing can be the most ignorant of them all.
NR
NR
WA
517 posts
NR NR
WA, 517 posts
7 Feb 2007 11:29am
I like stalling. I think thats part of wave selection. To be standing there until the set comes through, personally I don't see a problem with it and do it all the time.

However, If a guy is charging in on the swell, then I would let him take it and continue to stall and hope the next one is free.

The bit I don't like is when I am stalling, been there a few minutes, a set is coming so I start to unstall, mean time a guy has gone fanging past me out to sea down wind, gybed and is now further out to sea picking up the swell first. I always just think #$%#^#@ and just let it go. Not sure how others feel about it.

And if the reverse happens, where I see a guy stalling it, and then he wants the wave, i think good on ya for sitting there waiting and now wanting to pick it, and i just drop off the swell and get the next one, hopefully. The bit thats a fine line though and i think some confusion on here is when you are on the swell, the guy is apparently taking the wave in front, and then decides, nahhh, lets it go under and then picks your one. That definately is annoying.

NR
NR
WA
517 posts
NR NR
WA, 517 posts
7 Feb 2007 11:45am
Just to add, if its your friend on the wave or stalling, or whatever then absolutely no rules apply. It just all works out. Sit on the shoulder and wave him on, and watch as he eats it. Unless its getting huge, then cheer him on. When you know the people out, then everything just falls in to place. Noone steals and you all catch a few togeather.

In fact, thats one of my favorite things, when it starts to get pretty sketchy, and you coming in, and some one is going the oppostite directing jeering you on.

Fromthegong
Fromthegong
WA
23 posts
WA, 23 posts
7 Feb 2007 12:03pm
I agree with NR. I stall a lot, even when I'm out by myself, what's the point in sailing out if you don't come in on a wave.

But I also give up waves that I've stalled for in the same situations, just to keep things friendly. Sometimes I just get sick of bobbing up and down and just sail in and try again.

I think we should try not to analyse other people's motives too much, they're just there to have fun, normally, and most of the time they don't even know they're annoying someone else. And if you don't think someone knows the "rules", just keep away from them.

Yesterday a German lady decided to yell abuse at me because I narrowly missed her while I was riding a wave and she was in the water trying to get back on her board. Fortunately I saw her in time and avoided her, but she decided to bring it into the carpark and continue yelling at me. I apologised for not seeing her lying in the break zone (which can sometimes difficult to see), but still she continued. I wonder why people like this even bother windsurfing if it makes them so angry.
Jens
Jens
WA
348 posts
WA, 348 posts
7 Feb 2007 12:03pm
Hi Folks,

It's true that you'll see pros stalling for waves, and often people let them get away with it, as a sign of respect I guess? That doesn't make it right in a crowded line up though, does it? Stallers run the risk of being overtaken by the planing guys coming in on the swell, as NR pointed out, and that's fair enough I reckon.

I reckon sharing waves doesn't work very often. You need to be able to give the lip your undivided attention to ride it properly and get your timing and positioning right. That's pretty hard to do if you are trying to keep an eye on someone else at the same time. Usually it turns out to be an unsatisfying ride, even if the wave was good. Sometimes, when it is big it can be dangerous.

Decrepit-the Margaret's sailing ettiquette is still pretty much as you describe. By and large it is cooperative and follows the rules we've discussed, probably as a result of having a strong local presence which sets the tone.

Cheers, Jens
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12872 posts
WA, 12872 posts
7 Feb 2007 12:23pm
Good question Kremlin, my feeling is that it depends on how many people are out and how many waves are coming thru.
A person at the head of the queue being very fussy (and I think wave selection is a big factor in ride quality, it's what the best surfers and wave sailors have always done, it's half the reason they get such good rides all the time),
can cause a lot of OK waves to be wasted, if every body behind is waiting for him/her to go, this just doesn't feel right to me, I hate wasting waves!!!

May be there needs to be some sort of signal to wave people thru, if they want the lesser waves??? Or may be the guy in front shouldn't be so fussy??
I can see Elmo's point of view, I've waited behind fussy people without it bothering me, when the swell is pumping. But when it's one set every 1/2 hour, it gets a bit hard to take.
elmo
elmo
WA
8890 posts
WA, 8890 posts
7 Feb 2007 12:33pm
quote:
Originally posted by decrepit


I can see Elmo's point of view, I've waited behind fussy people without it bothering me, when the swell is pumping. But when it's one set every 1/2 hour, it gets a bit hard to take.



My POV comes from the fact that I'm an ordinary sailor and that stalling is just not really in my repertoire, like I said before I have 2 speeds planing or water starting, so in my case it's just sail on by.
hardie
hardie
WA
4133 posts
WA, 4133 posts
7 Feb 2007 12:44pm
Just a philosophical point of view on this subject that applies to many problems (including wave-sailing) in post modern societies.

The post-modern view on uniform and universal laws of behaviour is that people are now sophisticated enough to be able to make choices that are most adaptive to any given situation, and that many established norms are archaic or have little relevance to post-modern society.

The issue with this, is that with every thing in life, there are costs and benefits.

The benefits are that post-modern thinking allows greater choices for a greater number of individual tastes, giving people a greater sense of autonomy and individuality in life.

The costs are that people don't behave consistently, more confusion arises, and the worlkd appears to be more individualistic and more selfish.

Nothing is cost free!!!!

A rare moment of sanity and seriousness from hardie.
Kremlin
Kremlin
418 posts
418 posts
7 Feb 2007 1:27pm
Comrade Hardie
Who are you and what have you done to real Hardie ?
Much sore head from reading your response... I must be of partaking in salted fish, vodka and a wave sail... wind just hit magic 20 - 25 knot mark so I go to beach now and testing of these theories.... testing that is if I find someone else out sailing !
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12872 posts
WA, 12872 posts
7 Feb 2007 1:27pm
quote:
Originally posted by Jens

Hi Folks,

Decrepit-the Margaret's sailing ettiquette is still pretty much as you describe. By and large it is cooperative and follows the rules we've discussed, probably as a result of having a strong local presence which sets the tone.

Cheers, Jens



Thanks Jens, so every body stalls, but the lead sailor takes the first available wave?

That makes sense, as long as everybody's doing the same thing.
elmo
elmo
WA
8890 posts
WA, 8890 posts
7 Feb 2007 1:32pm
quote:
Originally posted by decrepit

quote:
Originally posted by elmo


My POV comes from the fact that I'm an ordinary sailor and that stalling is just not really in my repertoire, like I said before I have 2 speeds planing or water starting, so in my case it's just sail on by.



So are you just saying, this pisses you off?
Or are saying nobody else should stall because you can't?
Or asking to have the wave cause you were on it first?

If there's only just us local crew out there, as far as I'm concerned the wave's yours, even if I'm upwind, (as long as there's another one behind it, and I can stall long enough for it).
If you're upwind it's debatable whose wave it is, so that's a good excuse for "party wave".

The problem arises, when there's "blowins" don't like setting the wrong example.



It's only ever a problem when crowded.

and no my sailing ability is not anyone else's problem but my own.

but in regards to people stalling and letting waves go on by because they are picky I'm just going to sail on by.

But if they are just waiting for the wave to catch up with them then I generally bear of and go a bit further down wind.

The only exception to this would be if they've seen me coming in on a nice one and just gybed around thinking they can snake us using the upwind rule as an excuse.

Myself bring on the "Party Wave" done the weaving thing with the Hardie fella once, way cool.

Party Waves Rock
Leech
Leech
WA
1933 posts
WA, 1933 posts
7 Feb 2007 1:44pm
What I can conclude from all this is that windsurfers are an accommodating bunch and generally are looking out for each other and trying to maximise everyone's fun.

Even though the rules and conventions are not set in stone and everyone interprets them differently it's pretty clear to see who's in the posi for the best ride or that this guy will miss out on a ride at all if you don't give him space (cos he can't stall ).

If you're generally being considerate of other sailors and you find yourself in the prime posi you can have the confidence to claim it and call other dudes off. Probably being assertive is the best bet cos it's when no1 know wtf's going on that the sh1t hits the fan.
Leech
Leech
WA
1933 posts
WA, 1933 posts
7 Feb 2007 1:47pm
what about those kite-tards that won't even look at you and pretend they didn't see you as they narrowly miss choppin the top of your sail while hooting upwind of you to snake your wave?
hardie
hardie
WA
4133 posts
WA, 4133 posts
7 Feb 2007 1:48pm
quote:
Originally posted by Kremlin

Comrade Hardie
Who are you and what have you done to real Hardie ?
Much sore head from reading your response... I must be of partaking in salted fish, vodka and a wave sail... wind just hit magic 20 - 25 knot mark so I go to beach now and testing of these theories.... testing that is if I find someone else out sailing !



Sorry Kremmy babe been off the medication

If everybody has a different interpretation of the rules when out wavesailing, and as yet people aren't mind readers so don't know what any one individual's rules may be?, then what may that result in...........

I've heard lot's of different arguments put here, why one set of rules is particular useful/helpful, and that some rules apply better to others in specific locations, and some of the arguments are very sound. However, no consensus, it sounds like people are playing the same sport only with different rules.......hmmmmmmm........ What's that a recipe for......?
king of the point
king of the point
WA
1836 posts
WA, 1836 posts
7 Feb 2007 1:50pm
Stalling is a part of sailing, and it allows u to get what wave u want, thats why u do it. MAY BE but not in all cases

U CAN STALL FOR BOTH GOOD AND OR EVIL


If used correctly u can STALL to clear out the inside to insure crew are not in the impact zone avoiding having to land and arial on there head/gear and or bottom around a rig pitched in the lip.

Also

Stalling clears the path ahead of u if u let a few waves through to avoid doubling up with punters whom have NO wave on the inside.

Stallers end up pissing the line up off .They try to be come do gooders,, often they are out of rythem with the swell and sets and carnt find a wave for them selves.

Best u go in for another hot one.




NR
NR
WA
517 posts
NR NR
WA, 517 posts
7 Feb 2007 1:58pm
From what I have seen, I can actually defend the kiters here. Most (not all) are generally well aware at places like margies or gnarloo and don't tend to call you off or drop in. I have had many instances as well where they have been upwind, but let me have it. I guess because they can be out the back again and lining up in about 10 seconds.

I guess it depends on where you are though as I have been some places and from where I am standing, there is barely a ripple, maybe just some white water around at my feet and I have had some dude on a kite, fanging down wind virtually sraight at me shouting all sorts out as though I am just about to get in the way of his barrel. Where as i thought I was just on the flats going in towards the beach. This happened at scarbs not long ago. If there was a section on the waves anyway, then it had closed out a few minutes before.
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12872 posts
WA, 12872 posts
7 Feb 2007 2:43pm
quote:
Originally posted by Leech

What I can conclude from all this is that windsurfers are an accommodating bunch and generally are looking out for each other and trying to maximise everyone's fun.

-------
Probably being assertive is the best bet cos it's when no1 know wtf's going on that the sh1t hits the fan.



That sounds like a great summation, think I'll go for that!!!
Leech
Leech
WA
1933 posts
WA, 1933 posts
7 Feb 2007 3:13pm
quote:
Originally posted by NR

From what I have seen, I can actually defend the kiters here. Most (not all) are generally well aware at places like margies or gnarloo and don't tend to call you off or drop in. I have had many instances as well where they have been upwind, but let me have it. I guess because they can be out the back again and lining up in about 10 seconds.

I guess it depends on where you are though as I have been some places and from where I am standing, there is barely a ripple, maybe just some white water around at my feet and I have had some dude on a kite, fanging down wind virtually sraight at me shouting all sorts out as though I am just about to get in the way of his barrel. Where as i thought I was just on the flats going in towards the beach. This happened at scarbs not long ago. If there was a section on the waves anyway, then it had closed out a few minutes before.



Generally haven't had much trouble with kiter either. Most are considerate and friendly. Just that yesterday had a couple of kite-**** with the too-cool tude spoiling the fun.

Interestingly one of said kiters later found himself in a bit of trouble long way from shore and was lucky not to have drowned.
WINDY MILLER
WINDY MILLER
WA
3183 posts
WA, 3183 posts
7 Feb 2007 7:02pm
was that the "dude" with the yellow bag????

Leech
Leech
WA
1933 posts
WA, 1933 posts
7 Feb 2007 7:21pm
yep. so you saw too.
Greenroom
Greenroom
WA
7608 posts
WA, 7608 posts
7 Feb 2007 10:30pm
I think all those **** out there were sharing the one brain
Lucky he was able to relaunch his toy because I was almost not gonna help save his sorry ass
Kremlin
Kremlin
418 posts
418 posts
8 Feb 2007 9:45am
Comrades
Was he short with big ears and ranting ?
I think I know of this kiter you talk of for certain...
LouD
LouD
WA
642 posts
WA, 642 posts
8 Feb 2007 4:24pm
Was this behind Seal Island?
IF so, I was one of the kite****. Thought I was being particularly courteous and polite, offering up numerous waves to poleys.
One incident when I did grab a wave , as one of you guys were doing the stall shuffle and I didnt think you would make it, so gybed onto it, but immediately gave it away as you finally did make it. There were 2 kiters that I did not know out there, but interesting to point out that 3 kiters there were all ex(passionate) windsurfers which used to frequent this break almost daily 6-8 yrs ago, so we understand where you're coming from. HAve to agree though that kiters doing jumps in break take up a lot of space, intrude on others wave riding and piss me off as well. There is heaps of flat water for this a few meters away and loads of beach breaks close by for this.

JEFFERSON
JEFFERSON
WA
72 posts
WA, 72 posts
9 Feb 2007 11:30am
RE: STALLING

Stalling is only a problem if the staller gets in the way or tries to claim priority on the wave. I often stall upwind of people who I know are going to run down the line and not hit the lip.

If you are upwind and a wave comes through with someone on it there is no problem with stalling upwind of the peak and waiting for the guy with priority to start down the line. If you just want to get one smack on the close-out but don't interfere with the other guy it should not be a problem.

When you get a feel for the break you are sailing you will work out the abilities of the locals and who is more likely to do what.

Also, you should always try to work out who knows who. I don't mind sharing a wave with a competent mate and doing some cross overs on the wave but if some one I don't know tries it I would not be too happy.

If you are not sure then stay out of the way of everyone. If you are not going to actually ride a wave then stay off it or make it clear that you are just heading in to the beach. A wave not ridden is a wave wasted....
NR
NR
WA
517 posts
NR NR
WA, 517 posts
9 Feb 2007 12:29pm
A beer shared is a beer halved
holgs
holgs
WA
303 posts
WA, 303 posts
10 Feb 2007 7:53pm
First on the wave owns the wave. Therefore if a sailor is stalling, waiting for a wave that is 100m further out to sea and this wave has another rider on it, then the staller is stealing the wave even if he is more upwind than the sailor on the wave. I think stalling is only ok if there is no one on the wave that you are stalling on to unless maybe in the situation that Jefferson is describing.

I think the upwind rule should only apply if both are catching the wave at the same time. I hate it when someone tacks right in front of me onto a wave that I've picked up from out the back and then thinks they own the wave just because they are upwind of me. There are a few sailors at Lano who think the upwind rider has right of way no matter what and therefore go upwind like crazy on the way out (also think they have right of way on the way out no matter what) therefore stuffing up other people's rides in the process.

No matter what the rules are, stalling and dropping back on to someone else's wave is not polite, stuffing up someone's good ride on a wave by heading straight for the peak on the way out is not polite either. When riding a wave, forcing a non-planing or barely planing outgoing sailor right into the breaking part of the wave rather than giving them room to grovel around the breaking section is also not polite.

My 2 cents worth.
holgs
mineral1
mineral1
WA
4564 posts
WA, 4564 posts
10 Feb 2007 8:36pm
Laurie, Laurie, Laurie, Laurie, laurieeeeee, Laurieeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can you please set the forum on windsurfing so, any of our fine upstanding pillars of society, be it male or female, who start to type in any topic related to "Wavesailing rules of right of way" ever ever ever ever ever again, their screen does a melt down, and their lap top/desk top hard drive is rendered nuit[}:)]
I typed it small as just in case they all hear me asking you

mineral

Kremlin
Kremlin
418 posts
418 posts
10 Feb 2007 8:37pm
Comrade Holgs
This is big problem in Lano for sure yar... many sailors heading up wind no matter what (especially that r soul with the red gath)
Many try and head as high as possible on way out and also be of trying to snake on wave (tacking slightly upwind when you are already on wave)
If this happen for you just keep riding wave... if you catch out back wave is yours for sure.
If words are of exchaning you mmust be explaining why you stay on wave... not be angry just telling of them that heading super high up wind and then tacking/gybe to get wave that you are already on IS NOT RIGHT OF WAY... THIS IS SNAKE.
Many kite board trying of this along with goose with red gath in lano.
Stand your ground and be explaining why.
If shouting errupt signal for them to go to beach... you keep sailing.
If they come back and want you to go to beach you must be going in and then use Baltic charm.
Go to car... get vodka have drink.
This must be happening before any talking.. this is very much important
After first drink you ask OK so what is problem ?
If they are still angry you offer next drink and drink one also.
This may have to be of happening many times before calm and order is being restored yar ?
Eventually they falling over and peeing in wetsuit... this perfect time for you going back out and getting more wave
If this not work big slab of salted fish is always good option... this can be for eating or hitting with, choice is for you to be making of
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