Chris 249 said..

BSN101 said..

sailquik said..

powersloshin said..
That's exactly what I am thinking, he spent a lot of time developing and testing his ideas and this will benefit everyone. He never claimed that this is a sail for breaking records or winning races.

If it can't break speed records or win races, I am not that interested anymore.

Who knows though? No one has given it a go just turned their noses up at it.
Steve Allen has ridden a foil fin successfully. The Virus fin.
People say that such and such would be fast on a door with a sheet, hell put him on this rig with a windsurfing board and see what happens.
Someone has to be given one to test.

The designer of the wingsail is negative about other sailmakers and sailors in his marketing, so he can hardly complain if some people point out that some of his claims are untrue according to people who actually design world record holding wings and winning wingsails.

If people use negative terms like "Ridicules debate.....People's mind was so fogged....no one even payed attention....these developers came to foolish conclusion....totally useless" then they can hardly complain if other people are negative towards their claims.

Chris 249 said..

BSN101 said..

sailquik said..

powersloshin said..
That's exactly what I am thinking, he spent a lot of time developing and testing his ideas and this will benefit everyone. He never claimed that this is a sail for breaking records or winning races.

If it can't break speed records or win races, I am not that interested anymore.

Who knows though? No one has given it a go just turned their noses up at it.
Steve Allen has ridden a foil fin successfully. The Virus fin.
People say that such and such would be fast on a door with a sheet, hell put him on this rig with a windsurfing board and see what happens.
Someone has to be given one to test.

The designer of the wingsail is negative about other sailmakers and sailors in his marketing, so he can hardly complain if some people point out that some of his claims are untrue according to people who actually design world record holding wings and winning wingsails.

If people use negative terms like "Ridicules debate.....People's mind was so fogged....no one even payed attention....these developers came to foolish conclusion....totally useless" then they can hardly complain if other people are negative towards their claims.

Ridiculous debate, people minds foged.. its about curved plate airfoil developed by Warners brothers.

Stan , I hope you have a great day sailing your STORM today an enjoy every second of it .
I had the best day ever sailing my last proto (even if it got ruined doing so...)

Keep up the good work !

Chris 249 said..

MWsails said..

Chris 249 said..

BSN101 said..

sailquik said..

powersloshin said..
That's exactly what I am thinking, he spent a lot of time developing and testing his ideas and this will benefit everyone. He never claimed that this is a sail for breaking records or winning races.

If it can't break speed records or win races, I am not that interested anymore.

Who knows though? No one has given it a go just turned their noses up at it.
Steve Allen has ridden a foil fin successfully. The Virus fin.
People say that such and such would be fast on a door with a sheet, hell put him on this rig with a windsurfing board and see what happens.
Someone has to be given one to test.

The designer of the wingsail is negative about other sailmakers and sailors in his marketing, so he can hardly complain if some people point out that some of his claims are untrue according to people who actually design world record holding wings and winning wingsails.

If people use negative terms like "Ridicules debate.....People's mind was so fogged....no one even payed attention....these developers came to foolish conclusion....totally useless" then they can hardly complain if other people are negative towards their claims.

Chris 249 said..

BSN101 said..

sailquik said..

powersloshin said..
That's exactly what I am thinking, he spent a lot of time developing and testing his ideas and this will benefit everyone. He never claimed that this is a sail for breaking records or winning races.

If it can't break speed records or win races, I am not that interested anymore.

Who knows though? No one has given it a go just turned their noses up at it.
Steve Allen has ridden a foil fin successfully. The Virus fin.
People say that such and such would be fast on a door with a sheet, hell put him on this rig with a windsurfing board and see what happens.
Someone has to be given one to test.

The designer of the wingsail is negative about other sailmakers and sailors in his marketing, so he can hardly complain if some people point out that some of his claims are untrue according to people who actually design world record holding wings and winning wingsails.

If people use negative terms like "Ridicules debate.....People's mind was so fogged....no one even payed attention....these developers came to foolish conclusion....totally useless" then they can hardly complain if other people are negative towards their claims.

Ridiculous debate, people minds foged.. its about curved plate airfoil developed by Warners brothers.

"Warner Brothers"??? They made cartoons.

It's fairly simple. People like Boeing wing designers and MIT aerodynamics professors whose designs win world flying records and America's Cups say that the question of airfoil thickness is not as simple as your site claims. I hope you are not being so insulting as to claim that these world-leading aerodynamic and wingsail experts have minds that are "fogged", are you?

Sorry my droid autofill ... warner... anyway, fogged at that time, now if you notice all aircrafts incliding wingsiut, equipped with thick profile. By the way americas cup is just another desparete attemt to create revercible profile. They put millions on it, still missing a major point, its not assymetrical, nor revercible.

I would have sent a sail to Ludritez and let the numbers speak for themselves

Has anyone used one yet ?
I'm keen to see and try what Stan has spent a lot of time and money persisting with an idea that most have said " won't work, being done before ". That sounds like the arguments against the sailrocket before it smashed all existing speed records.
I followed this developer for a few years and his attention to detail and design is excellent and I hope it works as we've reached nearly the end of our sail design limit . I hope we can get him to Oz for everyone to see the proof of the product.

NelsonFoils said..












Stan , I hope you have a great day sailing your STORM today an enjoy every second of it .
I had the best day ever sailing my last proto (even if it got ruined doing so...)

Keep up the good work !

This is not what I ask. But thank you anyway.

kato said..
Has anyone used one yet ?
I'm keen to see and try what Stan has spent a lot of time and money persisting with an idea that most have said " won't work, being done before ". That sounds like the arguments against the sailrocket before it smashed all existing speed records.
I followed this developer for a few years and his attention to detail and design is excellent and I hope it works as we've reached nearly the end of our sail design limit . I hope we can get him to Oz for everyone to see the proof of the product.

Kato, thank you for your kind words. Finally someone with common sense. Here is answer for some qs. I did not have intention produce 5.8. My model was powerful slalom sail 6.5 made by aerotech. Properties like, mast curve , profile, shape was taken into account to begin with. I made about 30-40 R&D sails. So final size is 5.8 with power of 6.5. In one of my videos FB and youtube you can see me passing 7m evo8 pulling plaining jibe and than passing again. This is how powerfull it is . I sold tree demo models, two in USA, 1 to europe. It was very difficult to put together production model without compromising performance. So as soon as we made commertial model ,we publish website. First official model has been sold last week. We have another small batch of sails to be ready next week hopefully. So this is one of the explanation, why we did not made attemt for professional review. We waiting for written testimonies from our customers, will be published on the web. Also our 5.8 is very powerful and forgiving machine with mega wind range .We telling our customers if sail doesnt perform clamed wind range, send it back we will issue 100% refund . Over this winter I plan to make one size up. But Im afraid that it will be crazy machine. After testing, if applicabe to public release, you will see more line up.

By the way americas cup is just another desparete attemt to create revercible profile. They put millions on it, still missing a major point, its not assymetrical, nor revercible.

Now you are just being arrogant and ignorant. The wing sails for the 2013 and 2017 Americas cup were capable of changing their camber and twist profiles while sailing, and were capable of significantly higher lift coefficients than your rig and I would guess much lower L/D ratios as well. They could sail upwind on either tack, and in 2017 were efficient enough to allow 4 tonne boats to tack and gybe on foils.

In total, these boats had hundreds of millions of dollars or research put into them, including wind tunnel and extensive CFD testing. On the other hand you have a poorly formed understanding of the effects of camber and thickness on aerofoil performance, and and bugger all to back it up other than subjective on-the-water impressions, instead of hard numbers, race results or even GPS speeds.

Pacey said..

By the way americas cup is just another desparete attemt to create revercible profile. They put millions on it, still missing a major point, its not assymetrical, nor revercible.

Now you are just being arrogant and ignorant. The wing sails for the 2013 and 2017 Americas cup were capable of changing their camber and twist profiles while sailing, and were capable of significantly higher lift coefficients than your rig and I would guess much lower L/D ratios as well. They could sail upwind on either tack, and in 2017 were efficient enough to allow 4 tonne boats to tack and gybe on foils.

In total, these boats had hundreds of millions of dollars or research put into them, including wind tunnel and extensive CFD testing. On the other hand you have a poorly formed understanding of the effects of camber and thickness on aerofoil performance, and and bugger all to back it up other than subjective on-the-water impressions, instead of hard numbers, race results or even GPS speeds.

Wow so many passionate words. First of all americas cup "wing" doesnt change camber. They have just two symmetrical profiles one after other. Like rudder on the plane. Upwind performance terrible. In aviation similar profile has been used on p51 plane for t slow plane down during dives. But take off, landing,stall,etc. characteristics terrible. So idea was dismissed. AC 72 its just a toy for rich boys. If you still dont understand why airfoil needs to be assymetrical, on the plane, glider, birds, sailrocket, basically everyvere (exept ac72) , read some basic aerodynamics. Its available on internet, and its free.

Sparky said..
There will always be a "coolness" factor that may be missing here. The desire to have a sail like Bjorns or Antoine's. The knowledge that they had success on them and maybe you could too. Skodas are now fantastic cars, very much identical to a vw, but for me skoda used to be weird cars and I would still prefer the vw.

This is exactly what they say when parabolic skis were invented.

MWsails said..

Pacey said..

By the way americas cup is just another desparete attemt to create revercible profile. They put millions on it, still missing a major point, its not assymetrical, nor revercible.

Now you are just being arrogant and ignorant. The wing sails for the 2013 and 2017 Americas cup were capable of changing their camber and twist profiles while sailing, and were capable of significantly higher lift coefficients than your rig and I would guess much lower L/D ratios as well. They could sail upwind on either tack, and in 2017 were efficient enough to allow 4 tonne boats to tack and gybe on foils.

In total, these boats had hundreds of millions of dollars or research put into them, including wind tunnel and extensive CFD testing. On the other hand you have a poorly formed understanding of the effects of camber and thickness on aerofoil performance, and and bugger all to back it up other than subjective on-the-water impressions, instead of hard numbers, race results or even GPS speeds.

Wow so many passionate words. First of all americas cup "wing" doesnt change camber. They have just two symmetrical profiles one after other. Like rudder on the plane. Upwind performance terrible. In aviation similar profile has been used on p51 plane for t slow plane down during dives. But take off, landing,stall,etc. characteristics terrible. So idea was dismissed. AC 72 its just a toy for rich boys. If you still dont understand why airfoil needs to be assymetrical, on the plane, glider, birds, sailrocket, basically everyvere (exept ac72) , read some basic aerodynamics. Its available on internet, and its free.

Sorry, but do you actually think "America's Cup wings don't change camber"? It's amazing that you don't know that they do, and that cat wingsails have been adjusting camber since the 1970s.

All windsurfers can see how wrong you are just by looking at basic information such as this vid with an AC trimmer who says how they adjust the camber.

Here's an introductory video about the way they did the smaller AC45 wings.

Here is another article that proves that you are utterly wrong, complete with even more vision of an AC wing with different cambers. www.fishingboating-world.com/n/Americas-Cup--Nitros-Wingsail-Trimming-Primer/67411?source=google.au

There's some information on this page from Tom Speer, one of the designers, a former air force officer who designs Boeing wings;

www.boatdesign.net/threads/understanding-wing-technology.34697/page-21#post-788072

Now that you have shown that you don't actually know how these wingsails work, can I ask again whether you really think the world-beating Boeing designers, air force officers, MIT aerodynamics professors and legends like Bert Rutan who design these wings are getting it wrong?

Finally, you're in no position to complain about negative criticism when your own website and comments insult so many outstanding aerodynamics experts and sailors.

CJW said..

MWsails said..

Wow so many passionate words. First of all americas cup "wing" doesnt change camber. They have just two symmetrical profiles one after other. Like rudder on the plane. Upwind performance terrible. In aviation similar profile has been used on p51 plane for t slow plane down during dives. But take off, landing,stall,etc. characteristics terrible. So idea was dismissed. AC 72 its just a toy for rich boys. If you still dont understand why airfoil needs to be assymetrical, on the plane, glider, birds, sailrocket, basically everyvere (exept ac72) , read some basic aerodynamics. Its available on internet, and its free.

Well the wing on an AC50 does change 'camber'. I think not agreeing the effect of the angle between the 'two' symmetric sections of an AC wing as having a 'camber' effect is disingenuous semantics.

Mate, i'm open minded and look forward to seeing more results of these sails but saying things like the upwind performance of and AC50 is terrible is a pretty poor form of argument. I mean name another waterborne sailing craft that as the upwind/downwind VMG of an AC 50. I reckon the closest thing would be a foil kite and no **** I reckon it would be half at best. They go upwind and pretty decent angles at 30+kts and downwind and 40+ in 10-12kts of wind....I mean to me that seems pretty efficient.

The market I see for this is high performance, I don't think realistically anyone would really deal with the complexity, cost or hassle for just freeride blasting? Given that, line it up against some pros or get them to test it. 10 minutes and you'll have your answer on whether the drawing board needs a workout or not.

Oh rudder on plane revercing camber too? That would be silly conclusion. Alright its not about catamaran. I design sail for average sailor in mind. Its very simple and hi performance. With my sail people with average skills instantly improove. Mainstream industry really upset, this is why so many negativity written on forums. But it doesnt matter , the hard fact WIND RANGE 14-42 kt stays . Can your sail cover this range? NO. This is what makes your sail primitive and turns your criticism into **.

Chris 249 said..

MWsails said..

Pacey said..

By the way americas cup is just another desparete attemt to create revercible profile. They put millions on it, still missing a major point, its not assymetrical, nor revercible.

Now you are just being arrogant and ignorant. The wing sails for the 2013 and 2017 Americas cup were capable of changing their camber and twist profiles while sailing, and were capable of significantly higher lift coefficients than your rig and I would guess much lower L/D ratios as well. They could sail upwind on either tack, and in 2017 were efficient enough to allow 4 tonne boats to tack and gybe on foils.

In total, these boats had hundreds of millions of dollars or research put into them, including wind tunnel and extensive CFD testing. On the other hand you have a poorly formed understanding of the effects of camber and thickness on aerofoil performance, and and bugger all to back it up other than subjective on-the-water impressions, instead of hard numbers, race results or even GPS speeds.

Wow so many passionate words. First of all americas cup "wing" doesnt change camber. They have just two symmetrical profiles one after other. Like rudder on the plane. Upwind performance terrible. In aviation similar profile has been used on p51 plane for t slow plane down during dives. But take off, landing,stall,etc. characteristics terrible. So idea was dismissed. AC 72 its just a toy for rich boys. If you still dont understand why airfoil needs to be assymetrical, on the plane, glider, birds, sailrocket, basically everyvere (exept ac72) , read some basic aerodynamics. Its available on internet, and its free.

Sorry, but do you actually think "America's Cup wings don't change camber"? It's amazing that you don't know that they do, and that cat wingsails have been adjusting camber since the 1970s.

All windsurfers can see how wrong you are just by looking at basic information such as this vid with an AC trimmer who says how they adjust the camber.

Here's an introductory video about the way they did the smaller AC45 wings.

Here is another article that proves that you are utterly wrong, complete with even more vision of an AC wing with different cambers. www.fishingboating-world.com/n/Americas-Cup--Nitros-Wingsail-Trimming-Primer/67411?source=google.au

There's some information on this page from Tom Speer, one of the designers, a former air force officer who designs Boeing wings;

www.boatdesign.net/threads/understanding-wing-technology.34697/page-21#post-788072

Now that you have shown that you don't actually know how these wingsails work, can I ask again whether you really think the world-beating Boeing designers, air force officers, MIT aerodynamics professors and legends like Bert Rutan who design these wings are getting it wrong?

Finally, you're in no position to complain about negative criticism when your own website and comments insult so many outstanding aerodynamics experts and sailors.

Boeng designers did what they've been asked to design- huge rudder with flap. And they did outstanding job. They didnt put this kind of "wing" on their plane, arent they? Ok this forum about windsurfing. WIND RANGE ON MY WING IS 14 TO 42 KT.

I like original thinkers who question the generally accepted "wisdom". By definition, they have to disagree with "the authorities" in the field, and think that "the authorities" are wrong.

I also like if someone follows up on his ideas with years of development, and eventually ends up with a prototype that works. Even of the sail is in production now, it is still an early prototype in comparison to other sails in the market which are based on many years of successive refinements.

But there's absolutely no reason to be disrespectful towards others. Using words like "silly", "terrible", and even "**" is counterproductive, and just falls back on you. MWsails is doing himself a big disservice here.

I am quite willing to believe that an asymmetric foils sail could theoretically perform better than the current thin foils. But the current claims are that (1) the sail is easier to waterstart, (2) the sail is more stable, and (3) it has a larger wind range.

Point 1 seems logical. A race sail that's just lying on top of the water, without water in the mast sleeve, is easier to waterstart than anything else.

Point 2 (higher stability) is interesting, and would require verification by other testers who are trusted (and less abrasive than the developer). However, compared to very good modern sails, I am not sure how much can be gained. Even my 4-batten freestyle sails that are 3-4 years old have quite an amazing stability. My newer 4-cam race sails are stable. Period. Of course, they also have a large mast sleeve, and so share some design characteristics with the asymmetrical foil sail.

Point 3 is largely a consequence of point 2. I have no problems re-rigging when the wind changes, and bet I can rig any two of my sails faster than MWsails can rig one of his. But nevertheless, this is interesting. Some years ago, kiters would switch kites about as much as windsurfers switched sails when the wind changed. Now, I almost never see a kiter change to a smaller kite when the wind picks up; the modern kites seem to have a larger range, and that's great. More range in windsurf sails would be a good thing.

However, a closer look shows that more range holds only limited attraction. For for freestyling, the MWsail is no use - to heavy and no "neutral". The same is probably true for wave sailing. For speedsailing and slalom, many of the windsurfers I know are quite particular about having exactly the right sail size on the water. I know guys can hold a 6.3 in 40 knots. They may be well powered on the same sail in 30 knots, but will change sails because they want a bit more power and speed. Another guy always rigs 2-3 sails and has the sail-board combos on the beach. He'll come in an switch gear when the wind changes by a few knots. Not because he has to - his sails have plenty more range. It's because he wants things to feel "just right". A sail with even more range would not change that.

But perhaps a sail with more range would be attractive to many free riders who don't like re-rigging. But so far, the only evidence that we have about the MWsails having more range is the claim of the guy who wants to sell them. He's posted a few videos of himself sailing, put simply put, they are useless (unless you want to study his facial expressions). Sorry, MWsails, but your camera mount positions suck. Get a decent mast mount and a ClewView . Get some footage where someone else films you, and footage where the water actually looks like it's blowing above 35 knots.

boardsurfr said..
I like original thinkers who question the generally accepted "wisdom". By definition, they have to disagree with "the authorities" in the field, and think that "the authorities" are wrong.

I also like if someone follows up on his ideas with years of development, and eventually ends up with a prototype that works. Even of the sail is in production now, it is still an early prototype in comparison to other sails in the market which are based on many years of successive refinements.

But there's absolutely no reason to be disrespectful towards others. Using words like "silly", "terrible", and even "**" is counterproductive, and just falls back on you. MWsails is doing himself a big disservice here.

I am quite willing to believe that an asymmetric foils sail could theoretically perform better than the current thin foils. But the current claims are that (1) the sail is easier to waterstart, (2) the sail is more stable, and (3) it has a larger wind range.

Point 1 seems logical. A race sail that's just lying on top of the water, without water in the mast sleeve, is easier to waterstart than anything else.

Point 2 (higher stability) is interesting, and would require verification by other testers who are trusted (and less abrasive than the developer). However, compared to very good modern sails, I am not sure how much can be gained. Even my 4-batten freestyle sails that are 3-4 years old have quite an amazing stability. My newer 4-cam race sails are stable. Period. Of course, they also have a large mast sleeve, and so share some design characteristics with the asymmetrical foil sail.

Point 3 is largely a consequence of point 2. I have no problems re-rigging when the wind changes, and bet I can rig any two of my sails faster than MWsails can rig one of his. But nevertheless, this is interesting. Some years ago, kiters would switch kites about as much as windsurfers switched sails when the wind changed. Now, I almost never see a kiter change to a smaller kite when the wind picks up; the modern kites seem to have a larger range, and that's great. More range in windsurf sails would be a good thing.

However, a closer look shows that more range holds only limited attraction. For for freestyling, the MWsail is no use - to heavy and no "neutral". The same is probably true for wave sailing. For speedsailing and slalom, many of the windsurfers I know are quite particular about having exactly the right sail size on the water. I know guys can hold a 6.3 in 40 knots. They may be well powered on the same sail in 30 knots, but will change sails because they want a bit more power and speed. Another guy always rigs 2-3 sails and has the sail-board combos on the beach. He'll come in an switch gear when the wind changes by a few knots. Not because he has to - his sails have plenty more range. It's because he wants things to feel "just right". A sail with even more range would not change that.

But perhaps a sail with more range would be attractive to many free riders who don't like re-rigging. But so far, the only evidence that we have about the MWsails having more range is the claim of the guy who wants to sell them. He's posted a few videos of himself sailing, put simply put, they are useless (unless you want to study his facial expressions). Sorry, MWsails, but your camera mount positions suck. Get a decent mast mount and a ClewView . Get some footage where someone else films you, and footage where the water actually looks like it's blowing above 35 knots.

My face expession.... wow, constractive fedbak. Sometimes my ancke hurts after ski accident. Sail with pain. Waterstart race sail, no comment on this. You going out and reriggin your sail because you cant handle it. Sure, have fun. I never advertize my sail as wave sailing . FYI 99% of us enjoy flat water hi speed. And of course we all know one crazy guy who sails 6.5 primitive in 30 kt wind. But it comes back to you , riggin another sail. By the way, exept my face, have you seen me passing by 7m evo 8 using my 5.8 wing? May be this give you some idea how primitive your refined sail is. I tell my customers, if my sail do not perform in clamed wind range 14-42kt we will give them money back.