PTWoody said...
Important to note there is a 14' Open class and the Over 40s and Over 50s are also 14'. The only people who have to paddle 12'6" are those competing to snag the holiday to Peru.

And any girls that want to compete in any way!!!!

My choice is either to do the distance on a 12'6" (which like many of you guys, I'm not a fan of) or race a 14' against all the guys who are still strong paddlers but have decided they don't want to paddle a 12'6 for a slight chance of making the ISA team. I understand wanting to have the best 12'6 class paddlers (and yes there is a difference) going to ISA but if they recognise that not every competitor wants to paddle a 12'6" by offering an open 14' class for the men, it seems very shortsighted not to offer the same class for the girls!

Aside from any qualification path to nationals/ISA, the way the sport has moved up here in Qld leaves no ocean races at all (except the odd club event) where there is a 14 class for women - the xcel race, which has now become the state titles was one race that has always supported an open/unlimited or at least 14ft women's class.

Seems to be a lot of blaming going on here.

I know for fact that the big brands are not responsible for the emphasis on 12'6" class in distance racing as they don't actually want this to be the case. They are making 14' boards to suit distance racing, and 12'6" boards to suit BOP racing. The decision to force elite paddlers onto 12'6" for distance races was made by the ISA and Watermans League - both surf oriented organisations.

I also don't think the solution to everyone's problems lies in the manufacturers staging their own races. Imagine the calls of bias when races are designed to suit the manufacturer/organiser's board. I've heard conspiracy theories suggesting surf comps sponsored by board manufacturers have seen some "interesting" judging decisions favouring a sponsored rider.

Wrong time of year for waves, wrong distances, wrong boards, manufacturers fault, ISA's fault.

C'mon it's an election year surely it must be Julia's fault....

Ali Cat said...

PTWoody said...
Important to note there is a 14' Open class and the Over 40s and Over 50s are also 14'. The only people who have to paddle 12'6" are those competing to snag the holiday to Peru.

And any girls that want to compete in any way!!!!

My choice is either to do the distance on a 12'6" (which like many of you guys, I'm not a fan of) or race a 14' against all the guys who are still strong paddlers but have decided they don't want to paddle a 12'6 for a slight chance of making the ISA team. I understand wanting to have the best 12'6 class paddlers (and yes there is a difference) going to ISA but if they recognise that not every competitor wants to paddle a 12'6" by offering an open 14' class for the men, it seems very shortsighted not to offer the same class for the girls!

Aside from any qualification path to nationals/ISA, the way the sport has moved up here in Qld leaves no ocean races at all (except the odd club event) where there is a 14 class for women - the xcel race, which has now become the state titles was one race that has always supported an open/unlimited or at least 14ft women's class.

Ali,

Its a no brainer the women / girls should be able to race 14.

Phill

surf4fun said...

PeterP said...

I'm an importer and maybe I'm not an astute businessman, but I think we'll get more people racing (and sell more boards) if everyone is on equal equipment and events cater for the masses as opposed to a mess of classes and masochistic distances...even at national champs level.

How does putting everyone on the same sized board promote more people to enter? First of all it limits the amount of people who could actually win something and personally there would only be so many times I would finish mid- back part of the pack before I stopped entering. Secondly how can you expect someone say 70kg to be on a level playing field as someone who is 100kg just because they are on the same sized board? Ultimately I think there will be some sort of formula of weight to board length to make everything even.

The only way you can cater for the masses is to offer multiple classes -12'6, 14, unlimited etc. and as an event organiser if you didn't offer multiple classes the punters would be up in arms. You offer 15 divisions and you ask a lot from sponsors with only minimal entrants in each.

Thats an interesting one - it will never be entirely fair and we can't all win either. But do people rather want a chance of winning a class/division than actually paddling against the rest of the field? I personally hate the notion that someone did really well on a 12'6 - but they came 15th. What does that mean? To me it makes more sense if everyone is on as level a playing field as possible, but if consensus is that people rather enter to win a lowly division then so be it - but this can be achieved with age and novice group status on any board - no need to break it up into boardlength then.

laceys lane said...

surf4fun said...

PeterP said...

I'm an importer and maybe I'm not an astute businessman, but I think we'll get more people racing (and sell more boards) if everyone is on equal equipment and events cater for the masses as opposed to a mess of classes and masochistic distances...even at national champs level.

How does putting everyone on the same sized board promote more people to enter? First of all it limits the amount of people who could actually win something and personally there would only be so many times I would finish mid- back part of the pack before I stopped entering. Secondly how can you expect someone say 70kg to be on a level playing field as someone who is 100kg just because they are on the same sized board? Ultimately I think there will be some sort of formula of weight to board length to make everything even.

The only way you can cater for the masses is to offer multiple classes -12'6, 14, unlimited etc. and as an event organiser if you didn't offer multiple classes the punters would be up in arms. You offer 15 divisions and you ask a lot from sponsors with only minimal entrants in each.

I think the argument of distance is a bit confusing. People these are the NATIONAL TITLES! Some train all year to shine at this event, some this is just another event they will enter in the year, at the end of the day this is as big as racing gets in Australia. You don't hear marathon runners complaining that they have to run a full marathon at nationals to qualify for the Olympics.

because god made 14'er go glide so much better than a 12'6 for some reason. you have a lot more scope to get the right 'size' board for the right size person. ie super slim low vol or hi vol- you take your chances with conditions.

don't you think its odd there is not one heavyweight elite 12'6 paddler around!!!!!!!!!!!

12'6's is a lightweights game

its not a marathon its sup paddling.

at the end of the day the isa are limiting sup elite to featherweights- fact

My one post only for this topic!!!
The board class should be classed around the average sized person (In 2007–08, the average Australian man was 176.0 cm tall, weighed 85.2 kg and had a waistline of 96.2 cm. The average Australian women was 162.1 cm tall, weighed 70.1 kg and had a waistline of 85.8 cm.A comparison of results from the 1995 National Nutrition Survey shows that Australians are growing both taller and heavier. Between 1995 and 2007–08, the average height for men increased by 1.2 cm and for women by 0.7 cm, while the average weight for men increased by 3.2 kg and for women by 3.1 kg.)

Most of the top paddlers fall in to that group or pretty close to it. And remember these weights are blown out by our bad eating and lack of exercising way here in Australia.

And if you guys want a 14ft race and more girl divisions then go for it and run some events!! No ones stopping you!!

because god made 14'er go glide so much better than a 12'6 for some reason. you have a lot more scope to get the right 'size' board for the right size person. ie super slim low vol or hi vol- you take your chances with conditions.

don't you think its odd there is not one heavyweight elite 12'6 paddler around!!!!!!!!!!!

12'6's is a lightweights game

its not a marathon its sup paddling.

at the end of the day the isa are limiting sup elite to featherweights- fact

Agree with all those points, except the marathon. 20-30km is the equivalent to a marathon on a sup, most normal people would never even contemplate paddling that sort of a distance.

To be inclusive I would like to see the sport go towards more of a sprint style, say 200m, 500m and 1000m and make it an open playing field on whatever you want to ride.

Hi Pete,

What is your thinking behind 12'6 for women, not saying right or wrong just trying to understand why not go level playing field across the board with women having the choice to go 12'6 or 14?

The women in this format are not paddling against the guys so women paddling 14 against other women on either 12'6 or 14 shouldn't be an issue.

And why not go 12'6 or 14ft for BOP for everybody

Phill

OG SUP said...
Hi Pete,

What is your thinking behind 12'6 for women, not saying right or wrong just trying to understand why not go level playing field across the board with women having the choice to go 12'6 or 14?

The women in this format are not paddling against the guys so women paddling 14 against other women on either 12'6 or 14 shouldn't be an issue.

And why not go 12'6 or 14ft for BOP for everybody

Phill

I think I know where Pete is coming from as I've been guilty of this. The idea that women can better handle a 12'6 board simply in terms of getting it on and off the car and carrying to the beach, alongside the fact that women are generally lighter and shorter than men, and therefore don't get as much benefit from the longer board. However, that's horse crap. Most of the top women are easily stronger than me, and weigh more than me (no offence ladies) yet I don't want to paddle a marathon distance on a 12'6 board. So I've had to learn to cut out the condescending attitude and acknowledge that women should have the same board choice as I do.

I wish the ISA would just hurry up and announce the use of Inflatable sups only at there event with the big comps around the world to follow suit,
solves the board transport problems,
who cares what length 14', 12'6 ,20'?
less chance of impact injuries besides the odd blow out and rush of hot air

There is only two issue here i can see. Thats if your a girl and want to race 14 in the ocean race and if your that good to represent your country, you have to put up with ocean racing the 12'6" racing. As far a BOP is concerned, who would want to race with 14 footers in this type of race anyway? My personnel opinion is it won't be long before there is a serious accident in these BOP races. Hope these organisers have some big insurance covers and I feel sorry for the poor bunny that cops a board on the head. Only a matter of time, cant believe its seen the future of the sport....... Might be the only reason to race blow ups is to make BOP safe.

Awesome discussion going on here with some great insights. I am new to SUP but in the past had many years involved in windsurfing for fun and competing, and I feel SUP could learn from looking at how what other sports have done and the consequental results.

Windsurfing has had many ups and downs in numbers of both people participating and also competing. Clubs and companies tried all sorts of changes to equiment and classes to encourage participation, for example we had equipment go from one-design, to open-class, to production-class, to formula, back to one-design, for classes we had weight, age, board size, sail size, and ability, and that was all in about a 10 year period. It nearly destroyed the clubs as people could not afford to keep up with the gear and no juniors were coming through as it was too expensive.

Probably fun and fitness are the main reason people buy a SUP race board, some will also compete, but many won't, and for surfing SUPs the vast majority won't compete. If we were to apply some of what was experienced in windsurfing we would keep things as simple as possible, and keep any changes to a minimum.

Most of this lines up with what PeterP is saying (totally agree with you Peter on basically all your points), stick to one length as the major class and keep it simple, and as inexpensive as possible. Lets face it a 14 is more fun and easier to paddle, and if everyone is on a 14, then BOP style races should really be no problem (I actually prefer the 14 in waves over a 12'6"). As for classes, Open Men and Women, and age are the simplest, and junior and novice can usually have their own course and groups.

It's a great sport, and I would love to see it thrive, but to do so we will have to see more kids taking it up (as long as they don't take toooo many waves).
Regards KJ

If boards were to be decided on bodyweight as per Jacko's stats, then it's quite clear that 12'6 would be ideal for the women and 14' for the men. The only problem is that there will probably always be a much smaller amount of women racing meaning the market for new and used 12'6's will be very small, hence pushing prices up.

The easiest way to overcome this class debate is not to have any classes at all and accept that everyone must maximise their board choice to their bodyweight, skill and strength - (which everyone pretty much does anyways) - until they are forced into a class by an event organiser.

That does pose the problem that board production is less standardized and a few will have advantage on boards up to 18ft which will become extremely expensive.

For this reason the 14' class seems a reasonable compromise.

Surprised at the qualification requirement. Just got back from Nth Kirra at the Clubbie Aussies which has no pre qualification requirement and the participation numbers are impressive (7,000 + across multiple events, diciplines etc). Dont panic I'm not suggesting the aim should be to grow Aussie SUP Titles to this level of participation but some scale is still important. Most elite paddling events around the world still are open to anyone who wants a crack.

Idea > Seeding to later rounds provided to top competitors from State Titles and open slather to anyone else who wants to lay down the $ to enter. Accept it will require greater organisation but I think this it out weighed by the positives. Avoid issues if top competitors are not available for State Titles and also encouraging far greater participation. The luck element of races in surf always draw greater participation for the off chance you may get a lucky break on the race/day.

Padleboard component is a bit interesting as it will always be miles off the pace vs Clubbie Aussie Titles. If you want the best prone paddlers for ISA then its easy to know where to look and pick a team from.

Ready for the barage
HV

paul.j said...
That's not what those stats prove, the fastest guy in the world right now would have to be mid 80kg so by that then 12'6 should be the class.

Angie

Could you elaborate on the logic in this statement?