Underoath said..
Just an observation.

The biggest game changer is working on ones fitness. I'm 172cms tall and 84kgs. I need to loose around 5kgs.

The last couple of weeks I started setting some goals. Been working on my fitness and core strength.

I keep this up for the next 2 months, I'll be stronger, fitter, heather, lighter and more powerful. Naturally this will cost nothing.

If there was a kite marketed, that had lighter bar pressure, more efficient, made you jump higher/longer and had more power, people would spend the
$$$ to get it.

Its like seeing fat blokes on super efficient race bikes, well done on exercising, but the 10k efficient bike shouldn't be the priority. Get fit first.

Afternoon rant over.

Is it ok if I push for gear that works at my current weight? It does not help that the marketing department of every kite company makes ridiculous claims that is not supported by the gear. It gets made worse when a company spends to make one part of the gear - the kite - great and then leaves another part of the system - the bar and lines - perpetually defective, then sells on the basis of performance.

Exhibit A - the SLingshot Rally circa 2012-2015
Wingtips would bend under resistance form heavier rider. If the kite does not turn when a line is pulle dbut simply bends, does the kite company get off scott free in your book? The retailers will NOT refund on an issue like this. Years later, the designer admits to it in an interview.

Exhibit B - Naish Torch 2017 (with ESP!) a reinforced kite great for heavier riders. Marketed as a super booster and kite looping machine. Except the lines have a breaking force of 200 kg - so anyone weighing in at 100kg will constantly be breaking/stretching out their lines with just a weak kiteloop (forget about a megaloop)

How about brands take abit of responsibility for living up to their marketing? I went out and got a credit card with special warranty coverage in the event of a warranty claim rejection, just for kiting since so many companies are full of it. So, when it comes time for forums or when my students ask me what to buy, there is a list of companies I just wont send them to.

So I need to be a skinny boy in order to kite? Can we put that in the marketing? Credit to Blade for actually doing that, its why I never went for the Trigger despite liking the Fat Lady.

Start with the fact you are on two front flying lines, the rear lines are not under that much tension.

Second, when you jump high and throw an aggressive kiteloop, it creates a force (measured in gforce) that is then multiplied by your body weight in kg, which is basically equal to your breaking force (measured in daN). Anyone doing kiteloops will generate more than 1G altho I dont think anyone in this sport can get past 4Gs altho the MEgaloop CHallenge guys prob come the closest. Interestingly, the Woo device actually measures Gforce altho the standard output shows gforce at landing whereas you need gforce at takeoff (takeoff IS measured just have to dig into the data of the device). So it can be measured! and by low level consumer devices!

Next, in the case of Naish, the design of the lines has been a front high Y split on the flying lines ATTACHED via a Y connector to a SINGLE line that supports virtually all of the power on the kite. Can a 110kg rider like me beak 200kg lines (a Gforce close to 2)? I have three Naish bars with broken/horribly stretched out lines, two of which have been re-cut multiple times. Naish five line bars are common in Second Hand shops - but check the line tuning before you buy! Permanent elongation, or stretching (not elastic like stretching that rebounds after the session) is a lower order failure but still a failure!

The kicker is, the kite holds up - I rode my 2014 8m Torch in 55kts at 110kg (weight before board and soaked wetsuit and boots) in Cape Town throwing loops and the Canopy is not bagged out. But the lines, I go thru em like beer on Oktoberfest. I had a custom lineset made from SLingshot's 800lb (360kg) centerlines off an old SS bar I had. I just recently noticed they had stretched, after about 6 months of hard use. THen a manufacturer does a test of all the aftermarket lines (the lines on our bars) and sure enough, Naish came in dead last.

Marketing - you can go big and ride hard on our kite, the kite has special reinforcements!
Operations - we can't be bothered to build a decent bar/lineset combo that allows you to actually do this. No refunds.

Kite companies should be held liable to their marketing "image". Of course, a free market allows this - provided the information gets out to the purchasing group. And so here we are, with a kiter dreaming of a bar that is properly designed for his kite, redesigning, and cutting his own lineset, to do the work the kite designer should have done in the first place.

A Game Changer? How about a product that lives up to its marketing image!

Game Changers for me in the kitesurfing industry.

1) Cabrinha crossbow. The first bow kite ever, made kiting easy.

2) Fifth line on kites. Before Bows, deltas, hybrids. it made kiting safer and easier.

2) Slingshot fuel 2009. A real C kite that could be used in proper wind ranges, could relaunch.

3) Slingshot RPM.

4) Naish torch and Early Vegas.

5) Slingshot Bar and lines 2010. I still use this on 2 of my kites. Not even the pigtails have frayed. Prestreched lines that are over engineered

6) Best TS, a true allrounder yet in waves was the first kites I rode that properly drifted.

7) Proper QR systems that release under any load rather than a loop of rope and a pin.

8) Valves that are plastic welded and dont fall off after a season when the goop fails.

9) Board design from 2008. Nobile and Shinn lead the way.

10) Lightwind kite from 2014 on.

As a friend of mine said. Theres a difference between leading technology and bleeding technology. The only advantage I can see with FIREball is a reduction of a steering line getting wrapped around your harness hook. Why you have a crap kite or you havent had lessons.
The clicky bar being especially good in waves???No, downwind riding waves you need more bar pressure to keep the kite responsive as you lose apparent wind. I cant imagine a guy doing a committed bottom turn and at the same time reaching over and screwing a thread...... This bar will be good for freestyle as the rider can come in an choose that they want to do.Boost or do wakestyle, push a button, depower and throw a spinny. No offence to Spinnies.

3 pages now to a topic, are these ideas "game changers", lets call these innovations, as North and Cabs have unfortunately used a slogan that will not live up to the marketing hype.

Have you tried either "innovation"?

Gorgo said..

The bottom line is that you don't have to buy a Click Bar if you don't want to.

How many times have I read that throw-away line in the threads ? ^^^

Numerous times. It's getting old.

A stupid marketing blurb that has a slight ring of arrogance about it.

lol.

"You don't have to buy the CLICK bar, we aren't forcing you."

"You can always go with the TRUST."

Trust. haha

eppo said..

Never had a fifth line wrap though on the rebel.

I don't beliefe you!

Seen some many North guys swimming with a fifth line wrapped around the kite .... always a good laugh but one less in the surf is good anyway

The game changers that I can remember:

5 lines
One pump
Cross Bow
Wide entry inflation

Click bar, doesn't improve ease of use, safety or fun. Cosmetic only.

Cab ball thingy, nice concept, but a nice little floored ATM.

Always good to see some developments though.

eppo said..

marco said..

eppo said..



Never had a fifth line wrap though on the rebel.

I don't beliefe you!

Seen some many North guys swimming with a fifth line wrapped around the kite .... always a good laugh but one less in the surf is good anyway

Believe what you want. I rarely crash or make a mistake,sometimes when trying to new stuff and you fly under the kite. The secret is to be willing to hit the quick release if you see potential for this to happen. I have had the fifth line go inside one of the outside lines or is it one of the front lines..can't remember, but just ride it back to shore and reset..or do it on the fly but I never do that even though i could..safety first always.

Cubalota (however you spelled it) did a great vid on different safety systems showing this. But yes, to the unlearned their is potential for a fifth line wrap for sure.

if ya serious about wave riding you wouldn't be on a rebel anyway.

Agreed!The reason we designed the NEO to be on the quad bar, is to eliminate this issue.

KiteDesigner said..

Click bar does fix a number of issues, ease of use and safety fun for some people.

Short armed people can now reach power and quickly depower the bar instantly without trying to stretch out and fumble for a strap or fight against a unfriendly below bar depower

Impared people with loss of strength in the arms (I know of 1 with only 30% strength) can power depower the kite much easier. As there is little pull on side lines.

For some this bar is a game changer and fixes. Major issues they had with other bars.

But for me the bar fixes nothing. If I had the cash I would buy it as it's an excellent bar. For now i will stick with a simpler affordable setup, I like having 3 bars. I don't have or want to spend 3000 on 3 bars.

Quit saying 'power' and 'depower' when referring to that peppergrinder lever-action.

It's called trimming. ok

You should know that being a kite designer and all.

Underoath said..
How does a 100kg rider break 800kg (4 lines)

Something is a miss here.

It's called the "zipper" effect. One line breaks so all the force is shock loaded to the other line which breaks as well.

I understand being disappointed that gear doesn't cope with a 110kg rider. It's kind of reasonable in that the manufacturers quote wind ranges for a typical 75-80kg rider. I think I know only two guys who go close to 100kg and they're pretty low energy riders. The chances of them breaking any line are pretty slim.

It's easy enough to work around. Switch sell 395kg line sets for less than $100, and Ozone do 500kg line sets. You can buy 2mm spectra with 880kg breaking load for $30 for a 20m length.

eppo said..

Saffer said..

eppo said..

dave...... said...
BTW Chris Eppstein, What are your game changers. Number 11 on my list would be the Rebel, yet kooks had major line wrap issues. Beautiful kite to fly, yet had to rescue too many dudes from woodies with a munted left wraparound

Reckon ya covered it pretty much agree with all those above.

Never had a fifth line wrap though on the rebel. It can happen though for sure. Bridal less, pulley less loaded fifth unique to the market.

Innovations better description.

Trust bar is a perfectly good bar. But you don't have to buy one if you don't want one

I don't get your issue. It's like you're a $50K BMW 3 series buyer and you're complaining about BMW releasing an M6 for $300K because you don't want to spend $300K on a car. You can still buy the 3 series BMW.

Sorry? I don't get the issue I have an issue with, in that I don't really have an issue to start with. Where in the above posts do dave or I have an issue?

Hmmmmm, I think I will have to use a more stringent approach. We're lapsing back in time.

I agree with Kitedesigner . If you only buy one bar, then why not buy the click. But if kite strong winds it's good to own 3 bars so that your high wind bar is nice and newish. Not flogged. There is alot to be said for buying a cheaper bar such as the Griffin, replace them more often. That's got to be a safer option.

eppo said..

Saffer said..

eppo said..

dave...... said...
BTW Chris Eppstein, What are your game changers. Number 11 on my list would be the Rebel, yet kooks had major line wrap issues. Beautiful kite to fly, yet had to rescue too many dudes from woodies with a munted left wraparound

Reckon ya covered it pretty much agree with all those above.

Never had a fifth line wrap though on the rebel. It can happen though for sure. Bridal less, pulley less loaded fifth unique to the market.

Innovations better description.

Trust bar is a perfectly good bar. But you don't have to buy one if you don't want one

I don't get your issue. It's like you're a $50K BMW 3 series buyer and you're complaining about BMW releasing an M6 for $300K because you don't want to spend $300K on a car. You can still buy the 3 series BMW.

Sorry? I don't get the issue I have an issue with, in that I don't really have an issue to start with. Where in the above posts do dave or I have an issue?

Sorry, I clicked the wrong quote button. It was meant to be a quote about Waveslave's complaint.

Underoath said..
Just an observation.

The biggest game changer is working on ones fitness. I'm 172cms tall and 84kgs. I need to loose around 5kgs.

The last couple of weeks I started setting some goals. Been working on my fitness and core strength.

I keep this up for the next 2 months, I'll be stronger, fitter, heather, lighter and more powerful. Naturally this will cost nothing.

If there was a kite marketed, that had lighter bar pressure, more efficient, made you jump higher/longer and had more power, people would spend the
$$$ to get it.

Its like seeing fat blokes on super efficient race bikes, well done on exercising, but the 10k efficient bike shouldn't be the priority. Get fit first.

Afternoon rant over.

Haha. Yes. This. This This.
Good attitude, you'll have a strong season with this mindset.

JOYRIDER said..

eppo said..
By Christ you are a bunch of whining bitches at the moment...

What gives...maybe you guys are the dickheads, every thought that?

I agree with Eppo.

Chances are the reason why you have bad experiences with shops, is because your a "shop around", unloyal, pest that wants a deal or a discount for nothing.The simple thing with this bar and lollipop spreader is.... IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, DONT BUY IT!

But your uneducated skeptical opinion stinks and it's killing the fun, good reading that seabreeze used to have.

Rant over

Boy, sorry to outrage the ranters

If you think the issues I've heard are about not receiving appropriate discounts, then you'd be mistaken. I think my description made it clear some of the areas which could use some work. All with very straight forward solutions. If the shops/industry aren’t interested in listening to concerns and only fanboy praise. Well, there’s only one direction their businesses will go. History says and human nature dictates this. Ignore at your peril.

Which reminds me. In addition, I’ve noticed when the industry or a shop is criticised, the backlash can often be abusive, irrational and disproportionate to the criticism. For the type of industry kitesurfing wants to be, it’s a big mistake. To chastise clients and potential clients is sales and marketing death 101. Then the fan boys get involved and you have an overall associated bad experience.

This aside. I don’t see why there is a problem with shopping around. Normal practice in the rest of the retail world. Why should the kiting industry be different (Eppo says they're same same)? Various retailers even promote it by offering price matching. If the industry wants to move into the mainstream, which it does. It has to come to terms with contemporary sales challenges.

In the meantime you both fit in perfectly with the present industry rhetoric. But what would I know hey, opinions are like assholes.