buzzy said..

The National series is not just about Slalom. There is also free Race and Freestyle. I've seen some really high level freestylers in Victoriathat should be competing. Anyone that is highly competitive in GPS has the potential to enter Free Race, Slalom or both. Interesting post elsewhere, quoted below.

Interesting point with regard to the gps guys not being more forward in wanting to compete on a level playing field. Same place same conditions. With the sites this is all part of the fun but for me it certainly provokes thought about true ability. Not only, if your able to make your windsurfer perform to these nationally recognized "good numbers" why not race slalom, the ability is obviously there, or at least unbiased free race. I think some blokes put themselves on a pedestal because of there ranking on the gps sites and aren't prepared to put there money where there mouth is with equal advantage.. conditions and place.. Food for thought anyway, in my opinion there are some soft cocks who are sponsored as a slalom gps sailers based on their online presence but in the ring cant stack up against a guy who isn't getting the support but is a better sailor. Forced comparisons would be interesting. Obviously general comments not directed at anyone.

Obviously this quote is directed very specifically and is quite offensive. Where did it come from buzzy? (no attribution)

Whether a person want/is able to attend or not is a matter entirely up to them for whatever reasons they personally have.

Buzzy, I look forward to your personal report of the GI event. You are going I presume? (You don't work for an travel agent do you?)

I am sure it will be an enjoyable event for those who can go. Good luck to them
But it seems to me to be offensive and counterproductive to be berating, belittling and downright insulting people if you are trying to promote an event to them. Surely you promote things by telling people how much they will enjoy it, the reasons why and by promoting the fun of it? Why would you set out to deliberately alienate potential participants?

If Buzzy is the type of character I would be greeted with in attending the GI Nationals sadly it is off my list of windsurfing achievements

Have been following this thread closely and can agree with both the for and against arguments to holding the event at GI. I could't afford the trip last year buat Just thought I would like to say though that like you Kato I too wasn't convinced about the FR idea at the beginning of last season. I assumed it was going to be too like slalom also with the only difference being that you gybe "inside the markers" instead of outside them.

However after being closely involved with 9 out of the 10 FR races that QLD ran through the windwanderers club over the summer I can say I am a convert. Quite a few of our FR races had runs up to 7km long!, nothing like slalom. (others were approx 2-4km box) Lots of strategy involved over the hour was required to work out what was the best option/path to follow ie longer runs through the middle of rougher water or shorter runs in slightly smoother waters also where to start the hour, upwind seemed to be the better option for most and choosing the right kit. Because we tried to stick to windy forecasts it meant I did most of my FR races on a 5.8 or smaller and even did one on my 60ltr speed board! Did have to use a 7.3 for the last one as that was in May at the very end of our season. Plan is to stop at the end of April for next season.

I believe that Ian Fox's idea with the FR concept is that the "course" or box be set at the discretion of the race coordinator on the day to a size that reflects the safety/ orientation/wind direction and strength of the particular location on the particular day. KA72's custom FR software will create a box from whatever the waypoints it is given.

I think the concept of the FreeRace is a good one. It sounds like a lot of fun and should be enjoyable by a wide range of sailors. However, it is very like the GPS-one hour, so it's a bit hard to see how it fits into the normal scene when the GPS teams are focused on the GPS disciplines. Maybe they can coexist if there is interest from clubs or shops to organise races. The advantage is that GPSTC sailors could count it towards that competition.

For an event like the National Slalom Championships, it seems like a good and logical fit. I will be interested to see how it goes this year.

Despite my tongue in cheek comment about 'no wind in Queensland' (sorry, that was my poor attempt at a stir - I thought the would make that fairly clear), I know that is not always the case and GI has a good reputation for nice trade winds. I actually think that makes it a great venue for such an event. It's really important to have such events somewhere with reliable, suitable wind and GI fit the bill there very well.

I'm sorry I can't make it.

JonesySail said...
Interesting to read all this, seemed to stirred a lot of crew up not sure why? What is pretty obvious from the reading is not too many people truly understand the concept of Freerace.

When you do, you will see its probably the simplest way to organise a windsurf event, simplest way to score/have positions etc, doesn't rely on lucky winds, has no direct link to Slalom, Course, Speed sailing, yet uses a bit of each of these. It also encourages Newbies to be involved with guru's as everyone also is trying just to compete with themselves as much as the next person. You can have Pro's and Newbies all on the same bit of water at the same time.

I agree, it is a good format. But GPSTC does all of these things as well, and more!

JonesySail said...

I've watched with interest the all so very serious world of GPS sailing from a distance for quite a while (Its not so serious with Windwanderers and KA72.com) but to me it never made any sense to have 'rankings' as such when no one was competing in the same conditions on the same day, crazy...you cant have someone sailing behind a rock concrete wall in 40knt winds on the perfect angle with not a ripple in the water hitting 40knts , then comparing it to someone sailing a choppy or open water spot in 20knt winds but peaking 30knts...to me the latter was a much better effort...not to mention can any of them keep it up for 60+ minutes straight?!

Actually, it sounds like you may misunderstand the GPSTC format a bit. It certainly does not have to be 'very serious' at all and is not designed to be unless you want to do it that way. You can make it as serious, or not, as you choose, and the two teams you mentioned obviously choose their own take on it. That is great. The primary aims as I understand it, laid out by the great founder Hardie, and well proven in practice, was to encourage participation in windsurfing, with like minded people, and provide a focus for that with an opportunity for fun competition if that's what you like. The evidence that it has succeeded very well is in the website and all the interest it creates on these Seabreeze forums.

On the contrary, the 'rankings' are very fair and comparable, because they allow sailors to sail at any time the conditions are best. If you want to make the time and effort to seek out the best conditions, you can, which means you can show the very best of your skills and abilities. No waiting around for fickle conditions at an 'event' and not having to sail in forced conditions that are best suited to particular sailors on 'the day' and the particular gear they happen to have.

Every time you read a session report on the GPSTC website, you can see the description of the conditions the sailors had and admire their skills and achievements, and get a sense of the fun they had whether it was choppy and 12 knots, or mirror flat and 45 knots, or anything in between. There have been quite a few times when I otherwise would have probably chosen not to sail, given the less than ideal conditions, but I was encouraged to do so by, and for the team and had a great time sailing with friends. In my humble opinion, this is one of the greatest achievements of the GPSTC concept.

JonesySail said...
The other issue with it, it doesn't create an 'event' and if you want to promote or grow any sport or activity you need 'events' where lots of competitors are at, that the general public can see, it creates so much more, Defi Wind, Ledge to Lancelin (when its windy!) are good examples...Green Island last year went world wide with images that just promoted windsurfing at its very best....yep we don't all sail perfect conditions like that all the time...but if your going to sell a Volvo are you going to show lovely images of it driving through the Hills of Europe and then flying on a race track....OR stuck in a traffic jam on cold drizzly day.....

True, last years GI event did those things But again, on the contrary, the who GPSTC thing is 'an event'. It also has events within the event. There are over 1300 people from all over Australia, and indeed, from all over the world, who are participating in this event.

I have had the immense pleasure of meeting and sailing with wonderful, like minded people from all over Australia thanks to the GPSTC. The GPS gatherings over the years at Sandy Point and Lake George in particular have been really great fun, enjoyable events, and they have often provided a very positive picture of Windsurfing to the world through the forums, media and exposure to the local public. I have got to follow, and participate vicariously, in the fun that many other GPSTC sailors are having that I have not got around to having the pleasure of meeting in person yet, many of whom I already consider good friends. I am sure my experience is shared by lots of sailors in many places I have not been to yet. I was somewhat surprised to find that many of the European sailors I met in Luderitz also knew of, and followed, the goings on in the GPSTC individuals and teams, just as I could put faces to some of the people from overseas whose exploits I had followed on the GPSTC and GPS-SS community.

I would suggest that, if not for GPSTC and GPS-SS, the world of windsurfing would be so much the poorer, and there may not even have been the numbers of interested and participating sailors out there to make events such as GI viable.

JonesySail said...
The other things that have worked well for FR is minimum wind...avoiding running events in light wind, less gear requirements, I did the entire season on one FR board(not hard core Slalom) and sail (FR No Cam!) you don't need fancy race gear

This is indeed a very positive aspect of the FR concept. But this is also practiced by many people in the GPSTC as well. You just go sailing with your team mates when the conditions suit the equipment you have.

JonesySail said...
'date flexibility' is a key you need to keep your weekends free for it, be set up ready to act on the forecast, if its windy, it's green light and Go, you cant set a 'date' and turn up and expect the wind to blow...(unless you happen to live in an amazingly consistent place!) You only need 4 Hrs to prep, set up, run, sort and clean up a FR event.
Any way hope that explains Freerace a bit better, kind of just the same as Free sailing, but measuring your own performance on the day with the others that you were sailing with, for more info check out the website...http://www.freeracequeensland.com/ or the Face Book site www.facebook.com/freeraceq

Happy sailing, hope to some fellow vics (ex!).. up at GI, last year was a lot of relaxed fun and great sailing so hoping for the same this year!

Date flexibility is a great enabling feature for slalom and FR events and is also a primary feature of the GPSTC.
In my own team, whenever there is a promising forecast, the emails start flowing and the phones start ringing. I am sure this is an experience shared with all teams. One other great feature of GPSTC events is that there is virtually not set up time or effort involved. Charge up you GPS, strap it on, rig your gear and you are away.

But, I agree with you anyhow that FR is a great concept for organised 'events'. I sincerely hope it provides lots of fun for lots of people for as long as they want to do it.

It's not difficult to organise a countdown on the beach and find two marks for figure of eight slalom. Stop watches are cheaper than GPS units. The reason events like the Lancelin Ocean Classic draw a crowd is because the spectators can see who is winning. Not even the competitors in a free race know how they are going until their tracks are downloaded. There is simply nothing more exciting for the participants as well as spectators than having a clump of sailors converging on a gybe mark at high speed- it's fantastic! You will find out right then and there how you went on that gybe or how fast you went on the next leg. There seem to be proponents at the moment of a competition format which actually eliminates aspects like gybing, tactics, starts, windshifts, pumping onto the plane. I submit that these are all essential skills in our sport and deserving of recognition. Every sport involving mobility you can think of has traditional racing (you can even have a walking race!). It's fundamental.

I have never heard of Freerace before reading this thread so excuse my ignorance, so am I correct in assuming that the results and racing are based on the divisions that are used in the GPSTC?

Jman said...
I have never heard of Freerace before reading this thread so excuse my ignorance, so am I correct in assuming that the results and racing are based on the divisions that are used in the GPSTC?

no not really,

it is not based on the divisions in the gpstc at all. that's a bit of a misconstrued idea floating around.

the only similarity with the gpstc is that people use a gps and it has a time limit of 1 hour. that could of course be any time limit the organisers deem suitable. doesn't need to be an hour. Other MAJOR difference is the area you can sail in is limited to a defined area or box. you can sail anywhere within that area though. in qld the guys running freerace have been holding events at the lake where the edge of the lake defines the area. in open ocean places the set virtual points that mark out the extents of the "box". if you sail outside of the box it doesn't count.

So the major difference it has with the gpstc is that everyone sails the same patch of water. Unlike in the gpstc where you sail where you want anywhere in Australia. with freerace you are competing directly against the person beside you. think of it as a virtual slalom course where yo ucan gybe wherever you like within the box.

if anything the dunkerbeck speed challenge is more similar to freerace than the gpstc is.

to be honest this is the defining difference the gpstc has. it allows people to sail where they want when they want. you are in reality competing against yourself while virtually sailing with others.

freerace or any organised event for that mater has you competing directly against others.

^ yep that's pretty much it.

they use a specific software package to do all of the calcs and define the area.

but that's it in a nutshell. how fast are you within the area defined and the time limit set.
if you do that at green and beat everyone else you can put an Australian title in your cap.

As an added bonus you don't have to have people sitting in start boat all day or on the beach finishing etc. It is a great concept and puts those that take up the challenge on a level playing field. ie same water state and same wind. Whoever came up with the concept should be commended. Its also dam challenging to push yourself for an hour especially when you don't know exactly who is in the lead.

If its not your cuppa tea and you would rather sail for numbers and be a legend of the GPSTC or gpsss that's also great. windsurfing needs it all in my opinion. This just opens up another category for people to get their competitive juices pumping.

As far as having the nationals at green island goes. It's pretty much top 3 in my book of places to sail around the world. Consistent wind, warm clear water and friendly locals that will bend over backwards to help you.

If you are whinging about that it's probably because you are jealous you can't make it.

Hope to see some more of you Mexicans there. We might even show an afl game if you are lucky.

Leave the 8.5 at home.

windsufering said...
This is what windsurf racing has become, disgusting.

What exactly is disgusting?

DanP said...

Jman said...

geared4knots said..

Sometimes i wonder how spoiled some sailors are..

What is wrong with some sponsored sailors!!!
They save thousands,, yes thousands on there gear every year. Part of a sponsorship ,is to travel to national events?? Not just do a gps challenge locally and get good results. ( all disciplines included).

From what i understand the savings off gear helps sailors fund turning up to national events, promoting the sport and backing the Brands/products that gave them a good deal.
Dont be sponsored if you dont want to do this.!!
Perhaps Dealers/sponsors should look at sea breeze more regularly.
Too many guys getting good deals i think,.
Just an opinion

Fair enough but how many sponsored slalom sailors are there in Vic. I cant think of many.

If someone wants to sponsor me I'll go!!!

I'm cheaper to sponsor....
Smaller board mentioned earlier in post. But I'll have to add some sail repair tape for a couple of my sails, some carbon tape to fix my mast and a new cool T-Shirt; have to look the part.

The bic techno fleets are huge in Europe just like those fleet sizes you are talking about !

Milsy said...

in my opinion thats half of the top ten guys in the country that wont be there

Unless they compete,we'll never really know!