legless said..
Not sure how a bent one is created from a flat G10 sheet. Maybe a shipment got heat damaged somehow.

I will need to let people try my Delta XT 50's out at peel inlet to see how good they can be.

Yep, heat damage is a possibility, I hadn't thought of that, we were puzzled how it happened.

It would be good to know that the previous problems are now, non existent. There's not much weed at Fangys at the moment but Point grey is shallow and flat. That's the place to demonstrate them. The big challenge is crossing the choppy channel. You don't want to spin out in the middle of the stink boat lane.

decrepit said..

legless said..
Not sure how a bent one is created from a flat G10 sheet. Maybe a shipment got heat damaged somehow.

I will need to let people try my Delta XT 50's out at peel inlet to see how good they can be.

Yep, heat damage is a possibility, I hadn't thought of that, we were puzzled how it happened.

It would be good to know that the previous problems are now, non existent. There's not much weed at Fangys at the moment but Point grey is shallow and flat. That's the place to demonstrate them. The big challenge is crossing the choppy channel. You don't want to spin out in the middle of the stink boat lane.

The heat damage was all I can think of but It would have had to be a pretty high temperature.

I think there may have been more problems in the production of the original 55 degree Delta's because they had much longer FWD sections in front of the box not that I know anything about CNC machining a fin but I imagine that would be a harder section to CNC thus leading to possible errors.

The Delta XT 50 has a shorter FWD section particularly on the smaller sizes 14cm down do not have one. I personally have not seen a bent one.

Yes crossing the channel at point grey is an issue I think you just need to pick the right size fin for your setup and the conditions and try not to sail across the channel full powered and try and reduce the amount of pressure on you back foot . At Budgie in NSW sailing from Buff point to get to the flat you have to cross a smaller boat channel but when it is blowing the chop/swell can spike up it is fun watch people get back in using a delta. However the big advantage of the Delta XT 50 for point grey is you can sail with a smaller fin thus eliminate the chance of running aground.

I have no personal experience with the XT50, I was just going on watching Matt use them at LG this February, and they looked to work well.
Here is Matt with Carbon Art 120L, 7.8m Simmer Race and 22cm MUF XT50 22cm. Me on IS80L, KA Speed 5.7m and BP WeedSpeed50 25 (20cm). This running back crosswind through what we call chop at LG. And for those who have asked how deep it is, see Matt in waist deep when we stop at the end.

Good excuse to post more videos.



And a downwind, upwind run. Same day, same gear.



Here is a previous day with winds in the mid 20's on our speed boards. In this run Matt was on his CA50, Simmer Race 6.3m and 18cm MUF XT50 18cm. Me on CA40 KA Speed 5.2m and Curtis 17cm 50 Degree speed fin. We both peaked at 40Kt's on this run.

remery said..
I don't have much to add other than I foi d heaps less spin out with a FF22 than a Delta XT 18. maybe I should give the. Latter another try to confirm.

I am sure that is the case, as the FF is very much designed to NOT spin out, but can you do 40 knots with it?

remery said..
I don't have much to add other than I foi d heaps less spin out with a FF22 than a Delta XT 18. maybe I should give the. Latter another try to confirm.

You can't compare a FF22 with a Delta XT 18 the 22 is a much bigger fin for a start. Try comparing a FF22 with a Delta XT50 22 I can tell you that the FF22will have more grip but the Delta XT50 22 will be faster. In very flat water you are better off on the Delta Xt 50 22 if there is some chop you will be able to push the FF22 harder.

sailquik said..

remery said..
I don't have much to add other than I foi d heaps less spin out with a FF22 than a Delta XT 18. maybe I should give the. Latter another try to confirm.

I am sure that is the case, as the FF is very much designed to NOT spin out, but can you do 40 knots with it?

I comfortably did 37 on a FF22. Yes, I know 3 knots more is a big jump.

sailquik said.


I think even you would agree that the normal FF is not as fast as most other weed fins, and that it was designed with other goals as a priority, and on those it does very well indeed

Yes, you are absolutely correct Daffy. I said from my very first post that they were not outright speed fins. But I am just continuously surprised at the skills and ingenuity of the guys and gals who use them, to take the fins to new heights or should I say speeds, that I didn't expect.

sailquik said..

fangman said..
Jonski and Powersloshin have done 40's on FF20's . There are possibly more but my memory is rubbish.

I cant find those documented, but Powersloshin has gone very close on a cut down to 17cm FF20 with a 2 sec of 39.43 Kts. So perhaps that run showed a 40 peak?

None of Jonski's GPSTC top Five (all well over 40) are on a FF, but I am sure he has done plently of others.

I think even you would agree that the normal FF is not as fast as most other weed fins, and that it was designed with other goals as a priority, and on those it does very well indeed Perhaps the newer FF speed model is a different case.

On a more general note, I have tried many, many fins over the years, and very few of those have been complete duds (but I have to say there were a few ). Some I liked a lot more than others, but of course, they are the ones that suit my particular boards, sails, skills, size and preferences and particularly, the conditions I was using them in. Almost all fins have their good points and particular uses. The trick is to match that up with your personal needs and goals.

Yeah my claim to a 40 knot FF20 is from a session with a 2 sec speed of 39.83 however whilst talking **** on the beach I like to use the 40.2 knot peak to back up my claims

So the fangy fins probably aren't the fastest fins out there, If you're after top speed, there's faster fins around.
But they aren't slow.
And they cover all bases, for their depth and rake are good in chop, extremely good in heavy surface weed. And very abrasive resistant, you don't have to come in frequently to touch up the leading edge.
Lake George where the weed is usually under the surface and non abrasive, probably doesn't need a fangy fin as much as other weedy spots. But there are areas that can damage the bottom of an ordinary fin, shallow reef and big rocks. Best not to go there, but if you do, you'll come out better with a fangy.

I had a bad run with my mfu delta's if you hit anything the fin would split . Like the g10 layers were not laminated properly

legless said..

YP1 said..
I had a bad run with my mfu delta's if you hit anything the fin would split . Like the g10 layers were not laminated properly

Sorry that is just not correct. Hitting "anything" would split the fin! I have see loads of MUF Delta's at Budgie that have been used for years and run at well over 30 knots through the mud sand and weed with barnacles so much so the fins have been worn down to have the round shape of the Delta XT 50 rather than the angular squared off original delta.

I am assuming you are referring to your old Delta Speed 18 you have pictured on seabreeze. The Delta Speed was the thinnest and sharpest leading edge delta produced. The amount of damage you have done to that fin indicated you hit something or things very hard like rock at speed. It I remember right your local has some shallow areas at low tide with a hard bottom and lots of razor fish. I think you can't expect any delta fin or any fin for that matter to come away undamaged from hitting something hard at speed and the harder you hit it or the more times you hit it without raking repairs can lead to other damage to the fin like a perception of splitting it has nothing to do with g10 not being laminated properly.

I see you now have fangy fins unfortunately even a metal fin can be damaged if you hit something hard and fast enough!

Yes you are right it is the original delta but after 1 outing the de-lamination was terrible
So its show n tell ?! here is one of Wolfgangs CARBON fins after > 50 sessions in the same conditions. He makes a dam good fin that seems to be "tougher" than it should be for carbon. It is still a good usuable fin, even after all the punishment I have inflicted.



So as I said I had a bad run with my MFU deltas besides the fact the performance of the fin was rubbish

YP1 said.. >>>So its show n tell ?! here is one of Wolfgangs CARBON fins after > 50 sessions in the same conditions.

The difference is that the carbon wraps around the foil, so the fibres are holding the fin together. With a shaped G10 blank it's only the resin holding the fin together. The scrape marks on the carbon, would have inserted themselves in between glass layers. The resin bond just isn't strong enough to hold the layers together, so it splits.
This is one advantage of a moulded fin over a shaped fin.

Hey Legless, I agree with most of your points, but for the sake of my own annoying curiosity, can you please tell me why your preference is to use fins made of G10 rather than aluminium? I went through all the materials I could find and with the various compromises ( strength, cost, availability, durability etc) factored in, and I ended up with aluminium and obviously, I am rather emotionally invested in it now. I understand that very few people have a brain that wanders off on its own weird little creative paths like mine, and so I am also interested to try to understand different points of view and the decision making behind those views.
(Again apologies to the OP, but I think we can consider this thread well and truly hijacked now)

fangman said..
>>>
(Again apologies to the OP, but I think we can consider this thread well and truly hijacked now)

I don't think you need to apologise too much. discussing the relative merits of suitable fins, is still in context. As legless says, it's all a compromise, so all the information you can get, helps choose what compromise suites you the best.

Yes, every type of fin has it's place where it is the best compromise according to the conditions and use.

I own and have used the MUF Delta fin in sizes 18-20cm deep. I call them the 'Necessary Evil', They are the fin I used to use when all else failed because of thick floating weed and shallow water. In these conditions they work just fine as the water is completely FLAT! They enable you to have fun in extreme conditions where it would not be possible otherwise.
As soon as I encountered a bit of small chop I had to drastically back off or they were prone to sudden spinout and they dont go upwind very well, especially if there is some chop. But if you dont have chop, they work OK, and they get you out on the water.

The MUF XT50 (and 47?) seems to be a much safer fin in small chop, as evidenced from Matt's performances and the video's I posted earlier in the thread. They still cut through the thick weed very well, as well as any other 50 degree raked fin, and have a lot of area for their depth, but probably not quite as good in extreme thick weed and extreme shallows as the Original MUF Delta.

I also have a Black Project Kestral 16cm. That is also 50 degrees AFAIK, and it too cuts through very thick weed and is good in the shallows. My experience is that is much less prone to spinout than the original MUF Delta, but is not in the same category for extemem leading edge rake. Since I have not ridden the XT50, I cant compare, but I am guessing they are very similar. I did a peak speed of 45 knots in the Kestrel 16cm last year in very thick weed and very flat water in a Gale at LG in April or May last year..

This year, as I have said before, the weed in Lake George is thicker than previous years, but more importantly, there is much more of the floating and sticky green slimy weed this year. This means I found I needed 50 degree fins where in the past I was fine with 40 degrees (and less)

I used the BP WeedSpeed 50 - '25' (20cm deep) at lake George this year when I got the 'new for me' 2017 IS80 and found my other fins were not working as well in this board as in my older ones. This is an important point, because some boards just like some types of fins. I dont know why really, but it is something I have found quite a few times over the years. The BP is also 50 degree rake and worked very well. I had lent it to my friend Peter last year who did his first ever 40 knot peak on it in his Futura 90. I got very high 30's with this fin this year in not a lot of wind, but felt I needed a bit more area to go upwind better. I managed to buy a 21cm Techtonic Speed Demon as it was available at LG, and that worked better as it was bigger (more area) It felt safer for that reason and went upwind better. I still managed to crack 40 in the slalom board with it so I am very happy indeed with it. Thinking I could use a smaller one and maybe go faster I bought a used 17cm Techtonics Speed Demon. I found this was too small for the sail and board combo and was again having security issues (spinouts). I think that fin will work very well in my speed board, but I have not tried it yet as i have others that I know work well in the same rake and depth.

After my fast session at LG last year in the big blow and very thick weed, I realised a needed a fin that would slide over the weed even easier, and was shallower. The Tribal Delta weed looked very good to me having large area for its depth and a very high degree of rake, especially in the smallest sizes. So I bought two just for this circumstance, a 12cm and a 14cm. I had a chance to try them in my CA40 speed board at Budgiewoi last June in very shallow, thick weed-burg water. I could not find the 14cm in the trailer on the day, so it was with some trepidation that I fitted the 12cm hoping it would hang on OK. I was amazed to say the least. It not only held on well and shed the weed superbly, but it was even pretty good up wind and even more surprisingly, it didn't spin out in moderate chop at all. Yes, it did spin out when the mirror flat water suddenly ended and I found myself in 1-2 foot waves at well over 35 knots at the end of the speed runs, but anything would have in that situation. I didn't quite crack 40 that day, but was in the high 39's. along with a few other sailors.

There are undoubtably other fins out there that would work very well in the various scenarios that I have described. You just have to find what works in your particular board and match it to the actual conditions and the goals you have. The last part is the very important part.

As some very wise people have said in the past. It's not any one component that makes you go fast, no matter how 'good' it is.

It's the COMBINATION of equipment, rigging and sailor that is optimised for the conditions and the particular task that counts.