mathew said...

Arnold said...
GazMan, any sail that has not been put together by an insane chimpanzee would perform better IMHO.

seems to be not so humble... since we as a species evolved from them, that would put every brand at a disadvantage.

If there is something specific you dont like about KA as a brand, build quality, sail performance, etc, how about you just say so.

Mathew, correct me if I am wrong, although they may be our closest primate relative I don't think it is technically correct to say we (humans) evolved from the chimpanzee, I think we only share a common ancestor with the chimpanzee; and from this common ancestor came 'Homo whatever' and humans evolved, and also from this common ancestor came chimpanzee from which Mathew evolved

FormulaNova said...

Arnold said...

mathew said...

Arnold said...
GazMan, any sail that has not been put together by an insane chimpanzee would perform better IMHO.

seems to be not so humble... since we as a species evolved from them, that would put every brand at a disadvantage.

If there is something specific you dont like about KA as a brand, build quality, sail performance, etc, how about you just say so.

Mathew, correct me if I am wrong, although they may be our closest primate relative I don't think it is technically correct to say we (humans) evolved from the chimpanzee, I think we only share a common ancestor with the chimpanzee; and from this common ancestor came 'Homo whatever' and humans evolved, and also from this common ancestor came chimpanzee from which Mathew evolved

Yeah, so you answered some silly point about evolution, now how about your excellent discussion of the failings of KA sails versus whatever you happen to use?

I agree,whats your problem ?????? Rational argurment please Not just cos x brand is crap

I think this topic has nearly reached it's expiry date!

Hey lordhowe, have you been tuning in to the 'relevant' replies to your original post re masts for KA sails? (haven't heard from you for a while)

ka72 said...

Crazyjockey- I have a 2008 6.6 Koyote (which I have used heaps)that I have only ever rigged on a 430 RDM (Ezzy brand) and it works really well.

In fact I first rigged the sail on my old 430 SDM (Tushingham brand mast) and it didn't seem to rig well at all. So I tried it with the RDM and it rigged up perfectly. It certainly doesn't flatten out the sail or have any effect on the speed, as sailquik said much of the shape in this sail is determined by the seam shaping.
I also think it feels lighter and much more dynamic on the RDM and would recommend (my preference anyway) the RDM's for the 6.6m size and down of the Koyotes.

Thanks for that info KA72, appreciate it.

Gazman, you're using a 5.3 on a 430 RDM? I was thinking about getting the 2009 Koyote 5.0 to use in stronger winds, it'd be wicked if I could rig it on the same mast!

mr love said...

Crazyjockey, I run my 08 5.3 on a Powerex 425 RDM ( chopped 50mm off the tip a few years ago to fit a Severne Blade)
The sail sets and performs just fine on the 430, maybe a bees d..k flat in the bottom caused by the Powerex bend curve. I can,t notice any difference though and it is a favorite sail, love it.
One thing to note is that the 08 sail had an adjustable head and would rig on a 430. The 09 Spec on the website has the 5.3 with a fixed head. If this is correct it won't rig on a 430 so I need to confirm with Andrew. I suspect the website is wrong, but just hold off until I can confirm 100%
Also note there is no Koyote 5.0, 5.3 is the smallest.
Seeya Martin

Many thanks Martin (mr love) for making the issue of mast compatibility much clearer (as you did many times over with me before I became the proud owner of a 5.3 Koyote!).

I've also shortened my 430 X6 mast but only to 427cm which would still be too long in a 5.3 Koyote with a fixed head. mr love did also mention to me before I got the Koyote that his 5.3 appeared to rig a touch flat in the bottom because of the Powerex (RDM) bend curve. This doesn't appear to be an issue when rigged on my 430 X6 (SDM) mast as there is certainly plenty of curve/fullness down low in the sail. I can post some photos of the 5.3 rigged on my X6 if it helps at all.

Also, the website specs for the 08 5.3 Koyote mentioned a fixed head (as did the specs for the 09 Koyote) but my 08 5.3 came with an adjustable head. If you end up getting a 5.3 Koyote without it then will only cost around $35 to get one fitted which I think is well worth it considering the brilliant performance and durability of this sail (I got an adjustable head fitted to a 4.5 Combat not long ago in Perth).

When I popped the question of compatibility of my NP 430 X6 mast with the 08 5.3, 5.9 & 6.6 Koyotes via email to KA designer Andrew McDougall, his reply was:

The (08) 5.3 has a fixed head. We did this as putting it on IMCS 21 would compromise it.

The NP (X6 430) mast will be fine.

Worth pointing out here that according to Boards mag mast test article, not all 430cm IMCS 21 masts are exactly IMCS 21:



Same inconsistencies with 400cm IMCS 19 masts according to Boards test article:

crazyjockey said...

Gazman, you're using a 5.3 on a 430 RDM? I was thinking about getting the 2009 Koyote 5.0 to use in stronger winds, it'd be wicked if I could rig it on the same mast!

No, I'm using a Pryde 430 X6 SDM (std diameter mast).

crazyjockey said...

Cool thanks for that Martin.

I think I was looking at the Koncept page when I made the comment about the 5.0.

I'll wait to hear about the adjustable head before I make up my mind.

Thanks for the offer to post the photos GazMan, but I won't trouble you. Could you tell me though, when you are rigging your 5.3 on the 430 how much extension do you need on the bottom, and how much do you adjust the head on the top?

X6 mast cut to 427 cm (to suit previous sail), adjustable head cap pulled down as low as it will go with no base extension (using Chinook SDM mast extension). With my usual downhaul setting, there is about 3cm left below sail pulley for additional downhaul if required.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the boom cut-out on the 08 5.3 Koyote appears to be a bit low so if you're taller than me (I'm 178cms) and rig you boom at shoulder level then you may need to use some base extension to get the boom cut-out higher on the mast. I always rig my boom half-way between chest and shoulder height and I can't go much higher without using some base extension which would obviously lift the foot of the sail higher off the deck (just checked my markings on mast: top of boom cut-out measures approx 134cm from bottom end of mast whilst the boom centreline when rigged is usually 127cm from bottom of mast).

I also have the Boards mag article, or similar, that led me to a
North Gold SDM 460
for a
7.2 08 Koyote.

Again the "upper end of constant curve". Sail fits a lot better then the NP X3 460.

I have a question though. On my older KA Kult, ~2003, the outhaul can be adjusted by the batten's position on the mast. The batten just above the boom.

How do you rig your Koyotes?

I've found minimum outhaul seems to be quite similar to old Kult, the batten above the boom about half way across the mast. Max is... whatever is required really, pretty hard to completely flatten out/haven't experimented too much with max outhaul.

For downhaul I look at the tension crease between the 2nd and 3rd batten. Between 1/4 and 3/4 of way across sail.

i'm not sure all is right here formula nova.

i agree that the sail looks too loose,

the masts i have had some experience with and my understanding is that the art masts are rebadged powerex masts. (can't say for sure that all art masts are rebadged powerex mast though).

either NP is becoming more constant curve or it's inconsistencies in the NP masts.

Formula Nova , do as Tim 90 says and let off some downhaul. The specs are recomended max settings and the particular brand of mast and mast base will have an impact on the measurement. It looks over downhauled.
It also appears you have a lot of outhaul pulled on in these photo,s. Having the outhaul tight will tighten up the leech in the panel above the boom.
Can you rig it with less downhaul and outhaul (sail almost touching the boom) and take some more photo's?
What size sail is it?
I noticed a yellow Koncept as well. How is that rigging and on what mast ?
Thanks Martin

tim90 said...


Before getting the new masts, I would suggest rigging (and testing) the sails with reduced downhaul compared to spec.
...
I think I remember useing the 07 koncept with a lot less downhaul then the spec suggested.

Hi Tim, when I started to de-rig the sails I let the downhaul off gradually until the leech went tighter, to what I would expect my V8s to look like. At that point the shape of the bottom of the sail looked all wrong. I took photos of the top of the sail, but not on the lower panels.

mr love said...

...
It also appears you have a lot of outhaul pulled on in these photo,s. Having the outhaul tight will tighten up the leech in the panel above the boom.
Can you rig it with less downhaul and outhaul (sail almost touching the boom) and take some more photo's?
What size sail is it?
I noticed a yellow Koncept as well. How is that rigging and on what mast ?
Thanks Martin

Hi Martin, the sail that I show is a 8.5m Koncept, and the yellow one is a 7.5m Koncept.

The 7.5m is rigged on the ART speedstick and the 8.5m on the powerex z-axis. They are both showing the same problem with a really floppy leech.

This is the top of the 7.5m:



They are definitely not over-outhauled as I released the outhaul entirely and the shape stayed the same (there was almost no tension in the outhaul). The downhaul is to spec and when released, the leech becomes tighter but at that point the bottom shape is all wrong. The really loose leech is still there even with quite a bit less downhaul (6cm?).

I don't have a problem with them not rigging on NP masts, as I figured I would try it first before seeing if I needed to buy the recommended masts or an alternate suitable mast. I was a bit surprised by the powerex result on the 8.5m though, but I think this suggests the powerex z-axis 490 really does have a NP type flex-top.

I will try and take some more photos of them rigged with these masts at various stages of outhaul and downhaul. I think I will end up buying a new 460 though and see if the shape changes, which I am pretty sure it will. There has been a fair bit written about NP mast bend curves and them being flex-top, so I can see why the shapes are the way they are.

Dale.

I rig my 08 9m on a Z-Speed 520 and it is perfect. I tend to think it is just overdownhauled

sailquik said...

Hi Dale,
I have just been out in the backyard rigging my new 7.5 Koncept to get some accurate reference numbers and pics.

There's nothing like a new sail!

Hi Andrew, I meant to get out there today and rig it up again and take a few photos with it with less downhaul, but I didn't. I remembered I have a NP X3 460 as well, so I can try rigging it on that as well and compare the two. Maybe tomorrow - what else do you do on Christmas day!

I am off to WA for 3 weeks on a windsurfing trip, so I was hoping to take the KA's. If I can get them to rig correctly on these masts I will definitely take them.

One thing I have to say about the 2009 sails is that they look more interesting/colourful. The orange one looks good. Maybe a whole lot of orange sails would be a great quiver...

I will try and take some decent photos when I go through the rigging process again and let you know how I go.

When I read your rigging guide for the 2008 sails I noticed that you put the boom on before any downhauling. Is that right? I am used to the Ezzy and NP sails where you put on a bit of downhaul before you can attach the boom. I tried this initially with the KA's and the boom cutout made it hard to get enough clearance to attach the boom. Is that normal?

Dale.

Formula Nova , I raced around to AMAC's today and grabbed an 09 Koncept 8.5 straight out of the box. Rigged it on my (what I thought was) Powerex Z Speed 490 which turned out to be an ART Speedstick 490. Exactly the same mast.
It rigged perfectly, settings as per rigging guide, 510 luff ( chinook base on 20),220 boom.
Here,s some shots




Regards Martin

All very nice but allas just a load of blks