Bringing a little imagination to bear - You could put a kid in twisted harness lines under a sail on dry land and say "OK Jhonny, what do we do in this situation? That's right. Push the lines off the hook and swim to the edge of the sail"

I don't think characterising that as "put them off things forever" is accurate.

a variation on the theme-
People who fly in helicopters to offshore oil rigs have to do a safety drill where they simulate a crash into water. They have to escape a submerged helicopter cockpit upside down and all. It doesn't put them off flying, it does equip them with experience should they need it.

I too was going to bring up NotWal's point/analogy of defensive driving. Sure normal driving lessons don't give you let you experience a little crash, but normal driving lessons are stupid.

How many 18 year olds get their licence, are on the roads, and have hit the brakes really, really hard? None of them. Think about that. They have never even felt the ABS kick in. They've never, ever swerved. They know the rules but not how to drive.

A defensive driving course will teach you that "one day you may/will be in a dangerous situation, here's how to deal with it. Let's practice so it is (as much as possible) muscle memory". Skid pans for over/understeer, braking hard through witches hats and plenty more. I'm amazed it is not compulsory.

so what do you do when you are teaching kids?
stick them under the sail and put them off things forever?

Maybe they'll be like FlickySpinny and it will never, ever happen to them. What do you think? How is she going to react when it happens and she is completely taken by surprise, shocked, and out of your reach?

I said shallow water but I like the more obvious idea of dry land now. Just five minutes to say to a loved one "If you are stuck and drowning, it is probably this. Reach down to the hook and do this". Call me crazy.

FlickySpinny said...

Helicopter point is a good one, but you've got to take into consideration that people die when that happens, hence there is good reason for the drill.

Has anyone drowned by getting caught under the sail?
I'd be surprised if it hasn't happened.
You can certainly feel like you're going to die when you get stuck under the sail.
When it happened to me a couple of weeks back, after trying all the quick fixes and getting very short on air (and this is after years of sailing) I started thinking "If I don't unhook soon I am going to drown. This is a very real possibility." Then I decided I had to use my hands and feel where the harness line was and by feel get it untangled.

So, lets move on now to advice for getting out from under a sail when still hooked in.

Just as you say to a beginner, "Don't worry if you fall in and the sail falls on top of you, you just swim out from underneath it." - that doesn't panic them, it tells them how to easily handle the situation when it does happen, and it will.

So when learning to use a harness - "Most of the time you will automatically come unhooked when you fall in, but if not, then this is what to do:"

1. Reach down with both hands, feel hook, pull harness line out with other hand. Swim out from under sail.

other suggestions:

crazyjockey said...

I've landed (quite hard) under my sail several times. Disconnecting yourself from the harness lines is as simple as swiping downwards with the blade of your hand just in front of the hook.

That is a good idea

If you're concerned about being trapped under the sail and drowning, the issue is a lack of confidence in the water more than anything else.
More a lack of gills...

crazyjockey said...

Windxtasy said...
More a lack of gills...

It's very simple (essentially a downward karate chop across your body) , it's very fast, and it requires minimal coordination if you are stunned or disoriented.

As I said before, that sounds like a very simple solution to a potentially scary situation, and one I hadn't thought of even though it is so obvious.

Surely it is better to tell a harness learner this is what you do if you get stuck under the sail, than to ignore the whole issue for fear of frightening them?

Another solution is to get a harness with a quick release system for the spreader bar, similar to quick release system for snow skiing boots. My Neil Pryde impact vest harness has such as system and all that is required to release the bar at one end is a flick of a switch.

Such a harness would also benefit an intermediate windsurfer by providing buoyancy helping with waterstarts and protection to the torso against falls and knocks.

FlickySpinny said...
For the record, I've NEVER been stuck in my harness under the sail, and I've been sailing for nearly 20 years. Maybe I'm just lucky.

Congrats FlickySpinny, that's good going!

Unfortunately I've been caught hooked in under the sail on numerous occassions.

The first time it happened caught me totally by surprise and was accompanied by a bit of panic. I lost a bit of breath in the stack, the lines were twisted and I flicked between trying to catch a breath by pushing the sail up (not possible as I was hooked in) and trying to unhook a twisted line (never tried before and took a few attempts).

I reckon if this situation had've been brought to my attention prior, things would have gone more smoothly - as they do now. I could have visualised unhooking first and swimming to the side of the sail. I can't imagine that it would have turned me off in the slightest.

Having worked in the mining game I've done lots of emergency training for unlikely situations. Most of those situations have never happened to the majority of people training but nearly everyone appreciates being a little more prepared than they were prior to training.

Not saying it's for everyone - like any training you assess the participants and tailor accordingly. Just saying I would have been happy to thought about it prior to 1st instance.

Cheers

^ What he said. All this training, associations, levels, allegiance to the Queen of England, exams and stuff really take the fun out of it. More like "clubbies" than "surfies".

Has anybody used the "Here's a shortboard, now learn to waterstart" method?

evlPanda said...
Has anybody used the "Here's a shortboard, now learn to waterstart" method?

Yes.
After a few beginner lessons I have learned the rest the trial and error way.
A few more lessons at critical points eg) learning to waterstart could have sped up the process a lot and reduced the frustration levels!
Maybe I should take my own advice and get a lesson on gybing!

Windxtasy said...

FlickySpinny said...

Helicopter point is a good one, but you've got to take into consideration that people die when that happens, hence there is good reason for the drill.

Has anyone drowned by getting caught under the sail?
I'd be surprised if it hasn't happened.

Stats? My point is that everyone's got terrible stories to tell and everyone got out ok.

Gestalt said...



i'm wondering if the people who got caught under their sails are also the one's that didn't get lessons?
Lessons aren't goint to help if the issue of getting caught under the sail isn't even mentioned...

only time i've been pinned under my sail is in the surf.
It doesn't happen often but when it does it is scary. It has only happened to me once that I recall, but it was quite frightening.

i don't get the reluctance to get lessons.
Embarrassment at someone watching you do something incompetently and critiquing you. Kids are used to it. Adults aren't. Adults are used to learning things on their own.

i guarantee i could have anyone sailing and gybing on beginner's kit within 2 hours. people get lessons when they go snow skiing but refuse with windsurfing.
True.

take myt advice and get a lesson, just to have someone watching as a third person can make a huge difference.
OK then...

Windxtasy said...

[

You know, I have one of those quick release harnesses, and I didn't even think to use it until afterwards...

Really interesting thread - very helpful to an early intermediate. Haven't been caught under the sail, but I had a pretty nervy experience in the bay last summer - hook caught in front footstrap whilst jumping back on to uphaul and caught by a big swell. Board tipped over and pinned me underneath. The quick release on my NP waist harness came in very handy - it works.