swoosh said...

Spotty said...
To me it looks like your rope is crossing twice. Downhauling like this becomes more difficult the closer the pulleys come together, and can prevent the foot of sail from being closer to the deck for better sail trim depending on what style of sailing you are doing.

For reference in your pic I will refer to the Topside of any of the pulleys as the side you can directly see, and the Underside of the pulleys as the side facing the mastbase tubing.
Following the rope back from the cleat it flows properly to the top side of sails pulley.
But then it goes to the top side of the cleats pulley, it looks as though this is repeated again on the sails middle pulley/top side then to the next pulley on the cleats topside.

You have used the pulleys in the correct order but have crossed the ropes or (figure 8'ed them) between the pulleys. The rope should flow topside to topside and Underside to Underside.

Are you trying to downhaul your sail in one go before attaching the boom and out-hauling?

I pre-outhaul or even over outhaul my sail when rigging after I put a small amount of downhaul on first. This pre-bends the mast and slackens the luff to make doing the final downhaul easier. Then set the outhaul to the desired setting.

Hope this helps.

bit hard to tell with the pic, but i think spotty and keef are right and you have got the downhaul threaded wrong. the neilpryde website has a good manual on how to properly thread the downhaul, will help massively.

www.mauisails.com/files/products/sails/07no_cam_sails_guide.pdf

Yeah, thanks guys. Now my eyes are completely stuffed

I do agree with you all though, as it looks like it is looped 'across' from one side to the other as you follow the line from one pulley to the other.

I know that something simple like this can create more resistance than you expect.

Its different to the way I used to cross my downhaul when getting used to this type setup where the pulleys are aligned. When you cross lines with a big sail you find that it doesn't take much to make the lines go 'ping' when they get abraded.

I originally assumed the problem was not being able to use the powerXT extension, but reading the original post now, it seems like the pulley alignment will be your problem with not being able to downhaul enough.

If you do really want to use the powerXT I think you would have to get a pulley from a Pryde sail or similar that will allow you to hook the rope the way you need, and use a shackle to hook it to the bottom of the sail. The space you have there is not enough for the powerXT's rope (as you have said).

Here's my wonderful artwork of what I think 'might' be the problem. All drawn freehand too!

The way I think the rope is looped through:




and the way I think you should loop it through to make it a bit easier:

Windxtasy said...



Yes, and yes. Nice drawings.
and I realised why I hadn't learned how to correctly thread 2 pulleys before - I have only recently acqured sails which have a pulley...

Now, I'd really like an explaination of why 2 pulleys at right angles are more efficient than parallel pulleys, because it is counterintuitive...

I don't think pulleys at right angles are any more or less efficient than pulleys that are parallel. I think the problem is that you were crossing the lines across more of the pulley and as they get closer there is more resistance. I can't explain the physics behind it, but try it the 'other' way to the way you've got now and see if you can work out why.

You can misthread pulleys at right angles too, but I think because it tends to make the lines rub against each other it is more obvious and from experience it puts a lot of pressure on the downhaul and they tend to fray easily.

Here's (yet) another illustration of how I think a right angle pulley should be looped:

The answer is you CAN get the rope between the sail pulley and the tape with the XT. I've got some KA sails and an XT myself.

You need to roll it through with your fingers. Rooollllllllllllll it through using thumb and forefingers, and the roller thingies. That is the trick. You'll see, it is actually quite easy.

You place left side of loop on left roller, right side of loop (bend in line really) on right roller, thumbs on top of left and right roller and line, index fingers on other side, and roll it in.

My question: Where do you buy formula line?
My other tip: Don't use the XT's on masts bigger than specced on the extension. You'll break the line/rip it up in the ratchet.

My final tip: Downhaul using mostly your leg.

evlPanda said...

The answer is you CAN get the rope between the sail pulley and the tape with the XT. I've got some KA sails and an XT myself (see below for my question).

You need to roll it through with your fingers. Rooollllllllllllll it through using thumb and forefingers, and the roller thingies. That is the trick. You'll see, it is actually quite easy.

My question: Where do you buy formula line?
My other tip: Don't use the XT's on masts bigger than specced on the extension. You'll break the line/rip it up in the ratchet.

My final tip: Downhaul using mostly your leg.

Roll the loop through?
I knew there had to be a brilliantly simple solution.
Nevertheless I have learned a lot about downhauling efficiently in this thread.

There is a link for surfsailAustralia earlier in the thread. You can buy the formuline online there. $5 per metre.

I didn't realise there was a mast length specified on the extension.

As a continuation on the idea to thread a leader line through the rope, you can also melt the outer 1/2mm the formuline for about 1 inch up the end which makes it really stiff, a bit thinner and much easier to poke through the pulleys. Get the guy in the shop to do this by running the edge of their little hot knife rope cutter along the rope.

Gee's reading this last page of the thread after a couple of beers make's me think that some of the posters have not left woodstock safely.........

Get a whinch ! They dont cost much & are so much easier..Watch out using them on old sails though..my poor old delaminating 90 model sailworks finally died last night .I tore the monofilm? off the dacron..the clear layer ripped & peeled up because I got a bit too overenthused..it was dying anyway but..

Thanks for all your brilliant ideas.

Swoosh, Rob 11 and Ben 555 said...
get some formula line.

JayBee suggested the harness hook method of downhauling carbonsugar.com/technique/save-your-back-rig-it-right/

Keef and spotty said the downhaul line was crossing when threaded through the pulleys

evlPanda said
The answer is you CAN get the rope between the sail pulley and the tape with the XT. I've got some KA sails and an XT myself.

You need to roll it through with your fingers. Rooollllllllllllll it through using thumb and forefingers, and the roller thingies. That is the trick. You'll see, it is actually quite easy.

Bertie said...
use ur power xt, but thread the rope through like a normal extension every time, unthreading through the little cleat on the bottom.

this means you use it like a normal extension with a ratchet rather than the loop and go ratchet set up.

ikw777 said
And seeing as you are sailors you should be calling them "blocks". "Pulley" is a landlubber's word - or something you put on in winter.

And a number of people suggested getting a crank, but as I bought the XT to avoid doing that I thought I'd look for other solutions.

I thought I'd do a trial and try all of the ideas to see which worked best.

Rolling the XT rope through the block didn't work at all. (sorry panda)
Bertie, I could only threat the XT line through the blocks by adding a leader line in order to rethread it through the cleat.

Uncrossing the lines alone made the least difference to the amount of downhaul I could apply.

Using Jaybee's harness hook method of downhauling helped a lot, but not as much as changing the rope for formuline.

Formuline plus the harness hook method provided the best result, although that stuff is very slippery and it was difficult to cleat off when the cleat is a leg length away and there is a lot of tension on the line.

In the end I managed to get enough downhaul using my standard extension, which is just as well since the XT has started slipping.
Thanks, friends!

In the past I have wet the line to aid downhauling - it has a noticeable lubricating effect.

Use one of those clam-cleat based handles is good, but you can develop more power by using your harness spreader bar. I make a clove hitch, slip it over the end of the bar and heave away. (sometimes slipping the hook over the line ti centralise the pull)


Time to get into the gym?

Hmm hard to explain and I can't draw with the PC programs (no scanner either) I'll try and posta pic tomorrow.

I start with the rope on left side of the pulleys on extn

thread around left roller on sail (same as if they were inline) and move across each one left to right.

Then turn extension in the mast about 45-60degrees clockwise......... just enough that the pulleys almost line up BUT not so much that the rope is at too much of an angle to the wheels and wans to run off them.

That was no ropes cross/ rub, and you thread same way for all sails whether pulleys in line or perpendicular, so it is easy if you have mixed sails.
No sitting there wondeirng how you did it last year on your 3.2m sail

Actually here is an exert from the NP rigging manual found here http://www.neilpryde.com/images/en/downloads/generalRiggingguide_en.pdf

It shows both parallel and perpendicular methods

Re sails with the blocks at right angles, I agree with windaddict's post (and the NP 6:1 diagram) 100%.

But, the diagram is not so easy to remember, so I have added a memory aide to the foot of my sails. Ball point pen is OK for this. Assume that you have oriented your sail with the mast sleeve to your right, and the leech to your left.

This is the two-line aide I use:-

2 3 1
D U U

Translation:-

Firstly, up through the pulley closest to the mast (then through and out from the uppermost mastbase pulley)
Secondly, down through the pulley furthest from the mast (then through and in from the lowermost mastbase pulley)
Thirdly, up through the centre pulley (and then down through the cleat - job done)

The trick, I believe, is to start the threading of the rope correctly. The rest then basically has to follow.

windaddict said...

Actually here is an exert from the NP rigging manual found here http://www.neilpryde.com/images/en/downloads/generalRiggingguide_en.pdf

It shows both parallel and perpendicular methods

ive got one of those mxt extentions but don't use it, i find the clet cuts the rope unless you use a tention tool to relieve the tention and its going cheep if anyone is interested

evlPanda said...

^ Mine list mast lengths up to 430. It is the original XT. I think it is just the grunt needed to downhaul bigger sails that is the issue. Line tends to get shredded after a bit when it slips ever so slightly. Or I'm just using it wrong.

Mine has ratio of 1:30
http://www.north-windsurf.com/en/rig-components/POWER.XT-Extension

That's the one I have too.
If you turn it over it gives mast lengths of 460 - 510 on the other side...