Windsurfing on Sixty Minutes

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Haircut
Haircut
QLD
6491 posts
QLD, 6491 posts
30 Oct 2008 4:27pm
Little Jon said...

We need new people in the sport otherwise it will die out.


it already died, this is proabaly the best it's looked in the last 10 years

thank the lord for freestyle and gps units
Gonewindsurfing247
Gonewindsurfing247
WA
966 posts
WA, 966 posts
30 Oct 2008 3:31pm
ka43 said...

You couldnt get a park at Palmy on a weekend and Long Reef was the epicentre of wave sailing. Ah, the good old days.


Yeah, one of my mates leant me one of his old VHS tapes containing windsurfing he has taped over the years off tv in NZ. There was a whole bunch of footage from the World Cup wave event at Long Reef, with a helicopter flying around and people everywhere, Robby Naish ripping it up on Gaastra sails and lots of pretty fluro coloured harnesses.
Chris 249
Chris 249
NSW
3570 posts
NSW, 3570 posts
30 Oct 2008 10:39pm
Don't mention Robby ripping it up at Long Reef.......

The bad thing about drawing Robby in the second round of the wave comp at Long Reef was that
he made you look really, really, really ****house - and I never needed help to look bad!

The good thing about having drawn Robby in the second round of the wave comp at Long Reef was that no-one gave you a hard time about being knocked out by him!

As KA43 says, the sport was huge, and it was built on a back of a sport that was promoted as being accessible to everyone.....pensioners, kids, once-a-month sailors.

Just about all the big sports are sports that are NOT extreme, NOT very difficult, NOT expensive- so wtf do we promote 'extreme'* windsurfing?


* if you take the original definition of 'extreme' sport as something where you died if you made a mistake, windsurfing isn't extreme anyway.

NotWal
NotWal
QLD
7436 posts
QLD, 7436 posts
31 Oct 2008 1:55pm
Chris 249 said...

Just about all the big sports are sports that are NOT extreme, NOT very difficult, NOT expensive- so wtf do we promote 'extreme'* windsurfing?


* if you take the original definition of 'extreme' sport as something where you died if you made a mistake, windsurfing isn't extreme anyway.




Yeah. Windsurfing is not extreme but there is extreme windsurfing. It's like motorcycling in that regard. And like motorcycling and a lot of other sports it's more fun to do than to watch.

Has Ricardo pulled off a triple forward yet. That would be worthy of the mainstream news.
Toadwhispera
Toadwhispera
QLD
223 posts
QLD, 223 posts
31 Oct 2008 11:17pm
Pointman said...

Why do we need more media coverage?

Aren't Gnaraloo et al crowded enough already?

I kinda like participating in a low profile, under-the-radar sport with a cult following. I don't see what benefits mass consumerism will bring to windsurfing, in fact the opposite is more likely to be true....look at kiting...all being popular has done is introduce a bunch of fxcken under-qualified idiots to a potentially dangerous sport.

More publicity = more crowds


I'm with you on that one Pointman !! Good ah point
pierrec45
pierrec45
NSW
2005 posts
NSW, 2005 posts
1 Nov 2008 9:26am
Toadwhispera said...

Pointman said...

Why do we need more media coverage?

Aren't Gnaraloo et al crowded enough already?

I kinda like participating in a low profile, under-the-radar sport with a cult following. I don't see what benefits mass consumerism will bring to windsurfing, in fact the opposite is more likely to be true....look at kiting...all being popular has done is introduce a bunch of fxcken under-qualified idiots to a potentially dangerous sport.

More publicity = more crowds


I'm with you on that one Pointman !! Good ah point

Everyone has a right to an opinion, but if you think it's a good point, please address some of mine at the post that followed his on 27/10/2008, 6:55 pm - I'd be interested.

As to the rest of the thread, there is no way windsurfing is an extreme. Proof is, anyone after 2 years will be riding at some speed on long tacks. To laypeople that think it is difficult, I give the above argument and they agree right away (ditto kiting).

Wavejumping and freestyle are more extreme, but showing them off on TV or the Internet does not promote the sport and newcomers. At best it promotes viewership for a few minutes.

Said differently: say someone shows up at the local spot. They sees guys get about right and left, and I tell them just about anyone can do it (which I do firmly believe), then they might feel like taking it up - makes them curious.

If I tell them that it's extreme and difficult and requires fancy, expensive gear, which is not true, then off course they'll be put off.

The latter is the treatment prospects people get very often.
surfinchick
surfinchick
251 posts
251 posts
1 Nov 2008 8:42am
Little Jon said...

Oh yeah and I think we need more T&A (chicks in swimwear) in our mags like surfing and kiting mags. Sex sells!


What an intelligent contribution to the discussion !!!



NotWal
NotWal
QLD
7436 posts
QLD, 7436 posts
1 Nov 2008 10:56am
surfinchick said...

Little Jon said...

Oh yeah and I think we need more T&A (chicks in swimwear) in our mags like surfing and kiting mags. Sex sells!


What an intelligent contribution to the discussion !!!






I second that ringing endorsement.
Wet Willy
Wet Willy
TAS
2317 posts
TAS, 2317 posts
1 Nov 2008 12:38pm
I think the state of windsurfing now is JUST FINE and don't know what any of you are complaining about.

All we really need is more wind.
pierrec45
pierrec45
NSW
2005 posts
NSW, 2005 posts
1 Nov 2008 1:25pm
Nobody complaining, except those who perpetually want more wind

Nothing wrong though in trying to get more people into the passion.
nobody
nobody
NSW
437 posts
NSW, 437 posts
1 Nov 2008 3:34pm
pierrec45 said...

Nobody complaining, except those who perpetually want more wind

Nothing wrong though in trying to get more people into the passion.

Yes, I know I am. So why stop now?

[rant]
I actually remember an earlier time when people were less worried about the 2Kg of extra weight of their gear. When dacron sails and polly boards would last season after season of abuse without complaint. What was wrong with fiberglass masts anyway? They did the job and were arguably significantly cheaper. I'd still buy a polly board today if I could get one in the shape I wanted. I'm still considering buying a SuperFreak dacron sail once my rubbish monofilm sail has finally torn after too few seasons. I believe you shouldn't have to be too precious with your gear. Most of us aren't racing, right? Personally I'd rather have more durable gear, even if it is heavier. Probably cost less too. If you want to have less weight to improve your planing threshold, most people in AUS could probably lose 10Kg off their body which would probably make a significant difference.
[/rant]

[If you found the above confronting or offensive, what do you expect? It is a rant after all! ]

Toadwhispera
Toadwhispera
QLD
223 posts
QLD, 223 posts
1 Nov 2008 5:17pm
point

Everyone has a right to an opinion, but if you think it's a good point, please address some of mine at the post that followed his on 27/10/2008, 6:55 pm - I'd be interested.

I would love to address some of your points but I couldn't find the post !!


Fact. extreme sport or not Windsurfing is a hard sport to learn Bjorn reckons Windsurfers are the most determined people in the world , and I would have to agree.
Chris 249
Chris 249
NSW
3570 posts
NSW, 3570 posts
1 Nov 2008 9:07pm
Windsurfers the most determined people in the world? Huh?

Even in just the sporting world, that's not true.

I have a rello who is a top-class rock climber; gets featured in international mags, DVDs, etc. I was looking at his corkboard of pics of his old friends; about 7-10 of them died on the face. How determined is someone who keeps hanging off rocks when so many of your mates have died?

Someone I used to know did the Euro/Transatlantic shorthanded ocean racing trimaran deal. To get into the game, you needed to spend years getting a sponsor. Then, at the time, you had a 10% death rate, per annum. You spend lots of time with the boat on the edge of a capsize, with you hanging off the bow or windward float, trying to wrestle with a sail that can be up to 30m tall and 12m across, in a gale stronger than the ones 99.9999999999999999% of windsurfers ever see - and you do it at night, in the middle of a black ocean. You cross oceans in a cabin about 1m x 1.5m x 3m, moving across massive swells flying two out of three hulls at 30 knots plus - while you sleep. How much determination does that take?

What about the determination of a top-class swimmer, facing hours each day with their head down, doing laps? Or a netballer, dedicating their life to one of Oz's biggest sports with stuff-all chance of ever getting a decent buck.

Doing stuff like a Sydney-Hobart takes a lot more determination, most of the time. At night, halfway across the Strait, it's not like you have a nice warm shore and car just 200 metres away like you normally do windsurfing. It's surely the same with the guys who do white-water kayaking in remote bush areas, ice climbers, rowers (man those guys train hard!), etc etc etc.

I was Bjorn's training partner a bit before we did the worlds together years ago. He was just a kid, but I have some idea of the way he approaches windsurfing and a hell of a lot of respect for him. However, surely he's wrong in this respect.

And the idea that the sport DEMANDS people who are that determined is wrong; you can still be a "windsurfer" if you just blat around having fun on a lake. You can learn how to windsurf in a couple of hours....you won't windsurf well, but you're still windsurfing. At the uni windsurfing club we could get just about everyone "windsurfing", even if they had little English skill and had never even seen the sea or done much sport before they arrived in Oz. Hell, my mother in law windsurfs; not well, not often, but she does it.

It's an incredible sport, because it spans such a range - from camping overnight under your rig, to looping, to racing, to BAFfing and freestyle, Formula, ODs, light wind zensurfing - that to just say it demands incredibly determined people seems to be selling windsurfing short, IMHO.



pierrec45
pierrec45
NSW
2005 posts
NSW, 2005 posts
1 Nov 2008 10:54pm
Toadwhispera said...
Fact. extreme sport or not Windsurfing is a hard sport to learn Bjorn reckons Windsurfers are the most determined people in the world , and I would have to agree.

Well he's wrong. In the olden days, on very difficult gear (old Windsurfers for c... sake) everyone and anyone could learn and go. Very few would ever fail. Tippy boards, heavy, real bad triangular sail, heavy long booms - I've seen few people fail once they'd try the usual first 4-5 times. So it must be rather easy (anyone can do it = easy, not extreme). This is proven by the crowds then that we keep talking about.

Then it gets much easier to learn with modern gear of course. We have a demo day here, and very few don't get going after 2 outings - rate is at very least 90%. Everyone who sticks at it planes within the first 2 years with modern equipment too - basically it's a no-brainer now.

Perhaps he's talking about loops and duck gybes with a pirouette. Then I agree.
Toadwhispera
Toadwhispera
QLD
223 posts
QLD, 223 posts
1 Nov 2008 11:51pm
Well that quote from Bjon opened up a discussion didn't it !! I think he may have thrown the term "determined" around Loosly and in retrospect he may have used "Among" the worlds most determined, Its a while since I read the article but any way thats not to say the "top" windsurfers arn't Determined like "top class" rockclimers or "top" Ocean Sailors or "top" swimmers as mentioned by you , striving for that record, they are talking "triple" loops now thats "determination" and pretty fricken dangerous too,so lets not take this out of prospective any top achiever has to be determined even champion chess players I guess.
Lots of people have said to me, even today, a person said they had a go at windsurfing and it was just way to hard , "I couldn't turn around got blown out to sea" "uphauling that sail just killed my arms " "climbing up on to the board falling back in" "I had a go but it was too hard" I hear this all the time! Don't you ?? yeah fair enough putting around on the old boombora in a lake even that takes some skill and determination. but progressing to in the straps and blasting on high tec gear takes real determination. and two years is quite a long time to move through the basic learning curve,Waterstart ,straps , hooked in,jibing tacking all take time and determination.
So maybe not the worlds most determined but determined just the same







dism
dism
NSW
660 posts
NSW, 660 posts
2 Nov 2008 12:56am
Toadwhispera said...


and two years is quite a long time to move through the basic learning curve,Waterstart ,straps , hooked in,jibing tacking all take time and determination.



It doesn't that 2 yrs to do that! Well maybe the doing the tacks/gybes well (and on small kit) then yes you're right.

At least Seabreeze serves to hold together the small windsurfing community!

So when someone on the beach asks you about windsurfing say:
-It isn't hard on the right gear (wide boards)
-You can get cheap starter kit for a few hundred or so
-Yes it can be expensive, but so is other stuff, you don't need expensive gear but it is nice
-Kitesurfing is dangerous!
Toadwhispera
Toadwhispera
QLD
223 posts
QLD, 223 posts
2 Nov 2008 12:39am
pierrec45 said...
]
. Everyone who sticks at it planes within the first 2 years with modern equipment too - basically it's a no-brainer now.

Hi dism

I umm didn't actually quote the two year thing !! but just refered to it .


dism
dism
NSW
660 posts
NSW, 660 posts
2 Nov 2008 1:42am
Hey Toadwhispera, I was just happy that I learnt faster then the mentioned time frame!

Anyone got an estimate of how many windsurfers are in Aus?

From there we can work out what marketing is needed!
Toadwhispera
Toadwhispera
QLD
223 posts
QLD, 223 posts
2 Nov 2008 1:04am
Dism

That would be a whole new topic right there !
How many in Oz
Which state has the most (WA maybe !!??)
who has the most hard core (Tazzy or WA Margies,Gero,narloo, South oz)
Does or is anyone silly enough to sail in the Northern Territory ?
Does anyone sail Lord Howe? it would have to be windy out there !?
pierrec45
pierrec45
NSW
2005 posts
NSW, 2005 posts
2 Nov 2008 2:40am
Toadwhispera said...

Lots of people have said to me, even today, a person said they had a go at windsurfing and it was just way to hard "I couldn't turn around got blown out to sea" "uphauling that sail just killed my arms " "climbing up on to the board falling back in" "I had a go but it was too hard" I hear this all the time! Don't you ??

Yes I do, and you're right. There are 2 reasons, in my view.
a) this is the "I want it now" generation, them's the times. People who say that say so after only 10 minutes sometimes.
b) people nowaday teach on 100-liter boards, in adverse conditions, strong winds, off-shore. Very often with wayyyyyy too high booms for beginners. Usually it's their own rig for their height and the wind of the day. Almost as if they wanted the learner to fail and look good in the process. Almost...

When I teach, and I have a great time at it, I pick my crowd, the time and place and equipment. (And I pick a time I wouldn't sail myself for lack of wind AH AH).

Toadwhispera said...

Fair enough putting around on the old boombora in a lake even that takes some skill and determination. but progressing to in the straps and blasting on high tec gear takes real determination. and two years is quite a long time to move through the basic learning curve,Waterstart ,straps , hooked in,jibing tacking all take time and determination.

Two years is longggg, perhaps you're considering the extreme of wavejumping high and so on. Going from a heavy board on Narrabeen and Botany Bay, to a freeride board on the same waters, or even venturing at Wanda, doesn't take that much. And if the person is not skilled, then he/she may still stay at the Airport strip and blast and have a good time. At the last comp I was in, more than half had 2 years or less - impressive. But we need not get to that level to have a good time.

And this is the conundrum: if one can't go in this-that wind on this-that expensive brand new board, he's a loser. We've gone full-circle and agree on most points now

Cheers mate,
P.
pierrec45
pierrec45
NSW
2005 posts
NSW, 2005 posts
2 Nov 2008 2:42am


So when someone on the beach asks you about windsurfing say:
-It isn't hard on the right gear (wide boards)
-You can get cheap starter kit for a few hundred or so
-Yes it can be expensive, but so is other stuff, you don't need expensive gear but it is nice

Absolute right effing spot on !
pierrec45
pierrec45
NSW
2005 posts
NSW, 2005 posts
2 Nov 2008 2:46am

Anyone got an estimate of how many windsurfers are in Aus?

In north america, I seem to observe that numbers are dwindling on all front, of course, but that guys buy more and more (expensive) gear. After all, this year's board weighs 2.4 ounces less, right?

Sometimes I wonder where all the used gear go, but anyhow I would think the overall $$ is roughly stable - for now. Fewer people spending more. It can only decrease from there though.
Toadwhispera
Toadwhispera
QLD
223 posts
QLD, 223 posts
2 Nov 2008 2:09am
Hi Pierrec45
What are doing up at this hour it could be windy tomorrow !!?
I guess it could also be determined where you first start your sailing too , like here on the Gold Coast it quite a short season and all be it fickle. Your stoked if you get two or three days in a row here, but it does happen , so I think it took me two seasons to get hooked in in the straps and blasting then I hit the Ocean and that brought about more frustrations and you know what I still learn something every time I sail after 18 years , Plus I never had a lesson so that would definately help a learner, still have loads of trouble with the front tack on a short board DAMN !! any tips
Go to bed! I can't I'm working !!
windsurfer44
windsurfer44
WA
243 posts
WA, 243 posts
2 Nov 2008 1:14am
Toadwhispera said...

Hi Pierrec45
What are doing up at this hour it could be windy tomorrow !!?
I guess it could also be determined where you first start your sailing too , like here on the Gold Coast it quite a short season and all be it fickle. Your stoked if you get two or three days in a row here, but it does happen , so I think it took me two seasons to get hooked in in the straps and blasting then I hit the Ocean and that brought about more frustrations and you know what I still learn something every time I sail after 18 years , Plus I never had a lesson so that would definately help a learner, still have loads fo trouble with the front tack on a short board DAMN !! any tips
Go to bed! I can't I'm working !!



i should be in bed. its gonna be windy tommorw. but this thing called wireless internet lol geez
Toadwhispera
Toadwhispera
QLD
223 posts
QLD, 223 posts
2 Nov 2008 2:30am

Gonewindsurfing44


Go to program click on shutoff AND GO TO SLEEP its going to be windy tomorrow !!
Remember to try your fowards in the first hour of your sesh
pierrec45
pierrec45
NSW
2005 posts
NSW, 2005 posts
2 Nov 2008 9:08am
Toadwhispera said...

Hi Pierrec45
What are doing up at this hour it could be windy tomorrow !!?
(...) still have loads of trouble with the front tack on a short board DAMN !! any tips

Mate, here in upper US water is already near 0C. I like it painful, but this is the end for me here. Call me a wimp and all. (Am an ex-pat, if you will)

Front-to-back: I used a lot as I seldom use harnesses - good for resting forearms. I was surprised at a comp lately how much of FB people were using in 20-25 knots, from all angles. Was fun not to be alone... I was also really impressed with the tacks by couple of them. I thought I was quick on a 105-l, but man some of them I can't even see on my 30-frame camera - unreal stuff. One Phil Stolsiak (sp?) has fastest tacks ever.

But I digress. As I said, there was great freestyle in violent winds right by a popular boardwalk and basically nobody stopped - neither gentiles or local windsurfers. So much for viewership...
nobody
nobody
NSW
437 posts
NSW, 437 posts
2 Nov 2008 9:17am
pierrec45 said...


Anyone got an estimate of how many windsurfers are in Aus?

In north america, I seem to observe that numbers are dwindling on all front, of course, but that guys buy more and more (expensive) gear. After all, this year's board weighs 2.4 ounces less, right?

Sometimes I wonder where all the used gear go, but anyhow I would think the overall $$ is roughly stable - for now. Fewer people spending more. It can only decrease from there though.

Most of it probably got a few knocks and so is unsellable secondhand and just sits in the shed/garage (likely they were all light enough though). As for modern sails, according to this thread http://www.boards.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23097&PN=2 they're only designed to last two seasons anyway. No wonder some people don't see value in them. Did I mention I still have my mountain bike? It is about 18 years old now and still working. Same with one of my polly boards.
Chris 249
Chris 249
NSW
3570 posts
NSW, 3570 posts
2 Nov 2008 11:54am
While Toadwhispera is right to say that windsurfing certainly isn't the easiest sport, we do seem to make it harder by defining "windsurfing" as wavesailing or freestyle or being able to pull off a fully-planing ducky or whatever.

One interesting thing is that we bag out kids today for having short attention spans and requiring instant gratification, then we bag them out for spending too much time on the computer playing games that are often very complicated and difficult to master (afaik).

The interesting thing is that the games have levels, campaigns, different titles within a series, etc etc etc. So you get the gratification from finishing a certain segment of the game (or a whole game in a series like FF4, I'm told) after 20, 40 or 100 hours (depending on the level of difficulty etc) and then go on to the next one.

But with windsurfing, we tell people "it will take you 2 (or 6, or 18) years to become a real windsurfer" and wonder why they aren't into it.

And once the number of beginners drops off, and only experienced windsurfers are left, it becomes even harder to give the sport a friendly image. Way back when the sport was first booming, no one in Oz had more than about 4 years experience. Every week, other newbies started. It didn't take long to become one of the good guys, because very few people had that much experience.

Now, newbies are in a situation where most people have 10-20 years of sailing under their belt. The gap in experience is vast, and we're not doing much to fill it. We show people an image of sailors doing things that the vast majority of newbies could never do, especially those who are living in the city with a 9-5 job and family and (shock, horror!) perhaps another sport or intellectual interest.

If we could reclaim the image of windsurfing as an all-round sport, from cruising to waves to speed to racing and then don't sneer at them or their gear*, then we could attract people who just want to have fun.


"Everyone who sticks at it planes within the first 2 years with modern equipment too - basically it's a no-brainer now"

There's no drama in getting people to plane well within the first year (or weeks) on old-style boards, as long as they get access to proper small sails and instruction initially.

* one of the most successful marketers of high-performance sailboats in the world used to sell boards. He's pointed out that you can't succeed for very long in selling new gear each year to families, by rubbishing their older stuff. Resale values fall, upgrades therefore become too expensive, and pointing out the flaws in the old gear just makes the sport seem bad.

And after all, if company "Y" basically tells you that the boards they built in 2002 were crap, why would you believe them when they say that their 2008 boards are good?
NotWal
NotWal
QLD
7436 posts
QLD, 7436 posts
2 Nov 2008 11:03am
pierrec45 said...

Toadwhispera said...

Hi Pierrec45
What are doing up at this hour it could be windy tomorrow !!?
(...) still have loads of trouble with the front tack on a short board DAMN !! any tips

Mate, here in upper US water is already near 0C. I like it painful, but this is the end for me here. Call me a wimp and all. (Am an ex-pat, if you will)

Front-to-back: I used a lot as I seldom use harnesses - good for resting forearms. I was surprised at a comp lately how much of FB people were using in 20-25 knots, from all angles. Was fun not to be alone... I was also really impressed with the tacks by couple of them. I thought I was quick on a 105-l, but man some of them I can't even see on my 30-frame camera - unreal stuff. One Phil Stolsiak (sp?) has fastest tacks ever.

But I digress. As I said, there was great freestyle in violent winds right by a popular boardwalk and basically nobody stopped - neither gentiles or local windsurfers. So much for viewership...


No harness - you must have forearms like Popeye.
Am I right in assuming "front-to-back" is leeside sailing?
No tips on getting there? I find it difficult to do quickly. It seems to demand some flexibility in the knees that is just beyond me. More practice I guess....
Any dancers out there?
nobody
nobody
NSW
437 posts
NSW, 437 posts
2 Nov 2008 2:42pm
Chris 249 said...

* one of the most successful marketers of high-performance sailboats in the world used to sell boards. He's pointed out that you can't succeed for very long in selling new gear each year to families, by rubbishing their older stuff. Resale values fall, upgrades therefore become too expensive, and pointing out the flaws in the old gear just makes the sport seem bad.

Good point Chris and it happens to a lesser degree in cars. One year it was the next best thing since sliced bread, the next year journalists are telling you the new one is so much better as it doesn't have the problems of last year's model. No wonder many people take many journalists' reviews with a grain of salt...

And after all, if company "Y" basically tells you that the boards they built in 2002 were crap, why would you believe them when they say that their 2008 boards are good?

I get the impression that company "S" by their style of marketing does the industry the most damage in this respect.
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