Repair Delamination

4 years ago
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choco
choco
SA
4181 posts
SA, 4181 posts
17 Feb 2022 4:17pm
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23647 posts
WA, 23647 posts
17 Feb 2022 8:01pm
^^^^ absolutely brilliant explanation
Really good

Only thing I'd add is its still a 'dodgy' repair not same as replacing sandwich, and don't use a fast resin cos you will melt it (euro can be excused as he doesn't work in 40degC plus!!!)
PhilUK
PhilUK
1113 posts
1113 posts
17 Feb 2022 8:43pm
Its a really good explanation (not in his native language either). Humorous as well, "I made this highly complex model...."
I used a fast setting epoxy foaming resin when I repaired a board and it didnt expand much as it should because it was only about 10c, UK winter.
On the last syringe most of the cavities had already been filled, so squirting in a full syringe meant a lot slowly came back through the syringe. I was cleaning up and didnt notice the syringe expanding, then "pop" as it forced the plunger out. Epoxy went everywhere That stuff really sticks.
I later did another much smaller repair on a different board and the foaming resin expanded a lot more. It was maybe around 18c. That is 5 years ago and its still solid.
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23647 posts
WA, 23647 posts
17 Feb 2022 9:15pm
As much as I hate it due to the failures I see when used for mast track installs etc (dodgy) I'd like to try a foaming agent / additive for epoxy.
Not a foaming resin, the additive that works in any resin.,
Can't find it anywhere in Oz.

Anyone got brand/product names? Or Oz sources..?
Sandman1221
Sandman1221
2776 posts
2776 posts
17 Feb 2022 9:36pm
Great video, thanks! The part about leaving all the syringes in place was new to me. I covered some small flexible spots (1/2" x 1-3"), where the mast was denting the deck on the ridge that ran around the concave deck, with dual density deck padding, so far no problems, figured the padding would spread the load out and also strengthen the deck. If I had seen this video before doing that would have repaired the small spots before covering with padding. And assume he turned the board up side down for curing, so those syringes must of fit really tight to stay in place.
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23647 posts
WA, 23647 posts
17 Feb 2022 9:56pm
^^^ the syringes have a tapered nozzle to jam the needle on, so jamming them in the hole can be really tight.

And we did mention that padding is not the best solution a few times...
ZeeGerman
ZeeGerman
308 posts
308 posts
17 Feb 2022 10:09pm
Mark _australia said..
As much as I hate it due to the failures I see when used for mast track installs etc (dodgy) I'd like to try a foaming agent / additive for epoxy.
Not a foaming resin, the additive that works in any resin.,
Can't find it anywhere in Oz.

Anyone got brand/product names? Or Oz sources..?



Sorry Mark,
this is only from a German online shop ( where the bloke in the video obviously also gets his resin) so might not be worth considering for you due to shipping costs. They are reliable and cover a wide range of products and special offers though which might make a bulk order interesting even for someone in Western Australia.

shop.hp-textiles.com/shop/de/Fluessiges-Treibmittel-Schaumtreibmittel-HP-BEL11.html

Keep your repair videos coming, they're well appreciated.
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23647 posts
WA, 23647 posts
17 Feb 2022 10:33pm
^^ Thanks man. Might be worth buying o/s if I cant get local.
Can you translate please - how much additive to how much resin, to get how much expansion?
No point ordering a big one, if the small 50mL one would make a cubic metre of foam ...
Paducah
Paducah
2833 posts
2833 posts
18 Feb 2022 2:30am
Mark _australia said..
^^ Thanks man. Might be worth buying o/s if I cant get local.
Can you translate please - how much additive to how much resin, to get how much expansion?
No point ordering a big one, if the small 50mL one would make a cubic metre of foam ...



shop.hp-textiles.com/shop/en/Liquid-foaming-agent-HP-BEL11.html
data sheet: www.hp-textiles.com/TDS/EN/Fillers_Additive/HP-BEL_Series/GTDS.pdf
choco
choco
SA
4181 posts
Imax1
Imax1
QLD
4937 posts
QLD, 4937 posts
18 Feb 2022 7:52am
For this kind of dodgy fix , I do it a little different .
With a sharp Stanley knife , cut a inch square hole in middle of effected area .
Sand the square plug a mm smaller each side .
Tape around hole at least six inches wide . The more the better . Resin has a habit of going everywhere.
Using a large 100 ml syringe , ( EBay ) , and those fat straws with the little spoon on the end . ( slurpee straws ) EBay 100 x $15 inc del .
Squash spoon end a bit with fingers .
The spoon end should slide nicely between the delam .The rounded and curved end surprisingly slides in . The straw crushes flat when poking in hole sideways .Have spare straws ready in case .
Large syringes fit in the straw perfect. If not , tape around nozzle so it does . Do a dry run first making sure straw is tight on syringe and straw easily slides between the delam area.
Push the straw all the way in to the edge of the delam , connect syringe and squirt in some resin.
Repeat half a dozen times going round in a circle . You may have to change to a new straw if it gets to wrinkled..
This way the resin starts at the edge of the void and goes towards the hole in the middle . No air voids .
Use way too much resin and let it come out the hole . Lightly push down If area has bulged . Important on bottom of board , not on the top . Mop up mess .
Put the square plug back in the hole .
Cover in thin plastic sheet and place bag of soil on top.
With the weight on top , some resin will come out of the square hole around the plug .
When resin has gelled , remove bag of soil , remove plastic sheet , remove tape around hole . No mess. No fuss .
Sand plug area , lightly roll on layer resin over sanded plug area , sprinkle with caster sugar .
Done
Its a less ugly fix . You just see a 1 mm line around the plug.

Ps : for this I use Surfset Flex resin . It is very slow curing making little heat and it sets quite soft . Plastic like , not hard and brittle like normal resin .
Sandman1221
Sandman1221
2776 posts
2776 posts
18 Feb 2022 8:49am
Mark _australia said..
^^^ the syringes have a tapered nozzle to jam the needle on, so jamming them in the hole can be really tight.

And we did mention that padding is not the best solution a few times...

Mark, Hey, the padding has worked great, if it ever causes a problem I will let you know!
berowne
berowne
NSW
1559 posts
NSW, 1559 posts
18 Feb 2022 8:54pm
Few good tips in the video... Using one syringe per hole is a good idea to prevent the excess flowing out.
The Windsurfing Shed
The Windsurfing Shed
NSW
294 posts
NSW, 294 posts
19 Feb 2022 9:50am
berowne said..
Been repaired 3x at the nose. So not a new board (2019) and worked. Hard. I want to revive it until new stock arrives in the country.


Here now ;)











Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23647 posts
WA, 23647 posts
19 Feb 2022 7:39pm
Massive delam not a good selling point especially when its not even a slapper....
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12872 posts
WA, 12872 posts
19 Feb 2022 8:14pm
Mark _australia said..
Massive delam not a good selling point especially when its not even a slapper....



I don't know Mark, when those foils go into a power dive, the board can hit pretty hard.
Which probably means the boards are built for foiling, not for crashing.
ZeeGerman
ZeeGerman
308 posts
308 posts
20 Feb 2022 12:00am
Mark _australia said..
^^ Thanks man. Might be worth buying o/s if I cant get local.
Can you translate please - how much additive to how much resin, to get how much expansion?
No point ordering a big one, if the small 50mL one would make a cubic metre of foam ...



Mark _australia said..
^^ Thanks man. Might be worth buying o/s if I cant get local.
Can you translate please - how much additive to how much resin, to get how much expansion?
No point ordering a big one, if the small 50mL one would make a cubic metre of foam ...



They say it will expand by two to three times the volume you have to start with, so the 50 ml won't get you that far.
For 150 grams of resin you would obviously need 4,5 grams of the stuff, so 3%.
In the above example, one should obviously add 7,5g of this (PK22):
shop.hp-textiles.com/shop/de/advanced_search_result.php?categories_id=0&keywords=pk22&inc_subcat=1
(In order to make the resulting foam smoother and more homogenous)
I have never used any of the two myself, so can't say much.

Anyway, wouldn't two-part marine foam bond better with the eps core? I do have my doubts about the foamed (expanded?) epoxy still being too rigid.
Having watched the video where the above bloke repairs a duotone carbon boom leaving a wooden stick inside, I'm not fully convinced he knows what he's doing.
The Windsurfing Shed
The Windsurfing Shed
NSW
294 posts
NSW, 294 posts
20 Feb 2022 9:30am
Mark _australia said..
Massive delam not a good selling point especially when its not even a slapper....



Pretty sure it has nothing to do with construction but good hard previous life

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Foil-board-Repair-Job-The-new-nose-you-all-need?page=1
Sandman1221
Sandman1221
2776 posts
2776 posts
20 Feb 2022 8:15am
The Windsurfing Shed said..

Mark _australia said..
Massive delam not a good selling point especially when its not even a slapper....




Pretty sure it has nothing to do with construction but good hard previous life

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Foil-board-Repair-Job-The-new-nose-you-all-need?page=1


It is a foil board, why would it delam on the bottom from a "good hard previous life"?
The Windsurfing Shed
The Windsurfing Shed
NSW
294 posts
NSW, 294 posts
20 Feb 2022 12:30pm
Sandman1221 said..

The Windsurfing Shed said..


Mark _australia said..
Massive delam not a good selling point especially when its not even a slapper....





Pretty sure it has nothing to do with construction but good hard previous life

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Foil-board-Repair-Job-The-new-nose-you-all-need?page=1



It is a foil board, why would it delam on the bottom from a "good hard previous life"?


Should have said "abuse", 3 major repairs prior to this

Water ingress them can lead to all sort of issues down the track.

Any windy now, happy sailing.
ZeeGerman
ZeeGerman
308 posts
308 posts
21 Feb 2022 2:23am
Sandman1221 said..

The Windsurfing Shed said..


Mark _australia said..
Massive delam not a good selling point especially when its not even a slapper....





Pretty sure it has nothing to do with construction but good hard previous life

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Foil-board-Repair-Job-The-new-nose-you-all-need?page=1



It is a foil board, why would it delam on the bottom from a "good hard previous life"?


Don't forget the foil is a massive lever. Run it into the ground and it wants to rip the box out in the front. Powered up, it wants to move upwards through the board in the front, potentially ripping the box at the rear. With the bottom laminate connected to the box (hopefully), delam isn't an unlikely result, especially once you start jumping your foilboard. Mate of mine massively delamed his brandnew Ensis wingboard in the first session although I guess that the forces in winging are a lot smaller due to lack of a mastfoot.
ZeeGerman
ZeeGerman
308 posts
308 posts
23 Feb 2022 1:40am
@Mark
I've just stumbled upon another one from another German online store (we seem to love the stuff!?).
Threre is an English description to it, which might come in handy.
shop1.r-g.de/en/art/130144
Cheers,
Sven
berowne
berowne
NSW
1559 posts
NSW, 1559 posts
23 Feb 2022 8:10am
Yeah that FMX has had a 'hard' life.

Before any damage I was vain and wanted to keep the nice look of the new board unblemished.
It took about 20 good catapults before the first signs of damage appeared on the nose.
Then I had the board 'professionally' repaired twice in 2 weeks after finally cracking it, only to find on the 3rd catapult that they must have used fast-set resin and melted foam inside the nose invicibly.
So for the 3rd nose job I did it myself (as Remi pointed out).
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Foil-board-Repair-Job-The-new-nose-you-all-need?page=1

Since then I suspect water got in a small crach either around the repair, or more likely a small dent on the rail.
I noticed this water coming out a pin-hole in the rear cut-out area a few weeks before the delamination.
Board sailed fine delaminated, even winning a state slalom race!

Fixed now, just waiting for spray paint and new EVA foam floor mat (20mm x 1m x 1m) to be cut to size.
berowne
berowne
NSW
1559 posts
NSW, 1559 posts
1 Mar 2022 11:18am
Delamination all sorted now!









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