New Record- 48 knots on a k***board

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oldie
oldie
VIC
356 posts
VIC, 356 posts
31 Dec 2005 3:06pm
Was the SHQ bloke kidding me or not?
Umgawa!
Umgawa!
VIC
33 posts
VIC, 33 posts
31 Dec 2005 6:23pm
It was more like 44knots, and wasnt official.
vando
vando
QLD
3419 posts
QLD, 3419 posts
31 Dec 2005 6:04pm
I believe his top peak speed was 47.5 and he averaged 44 knots.
official or not that's fast.
See www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=forum&forum=1&val=1248
hardman
hardman
1116 posts
1116 posts
31 Dec 2005 9:01pm
Jim Drake, Physicist and co-inventor of the windsurfer predicted 5 years ago that the fastest craft on the water and first to break 50knots would be the kites. He has been involved in the design of jet planes and aerodynamics, and transposed those skills to windsurfing and other water sports. He should know more than others. His basic point was that speed was basically about power versus resistence, claiming kites had much more power, and much less resistence. He stated this in the context that kiting was in it's infancy in development and had so many gains to make, whilst windsurfing was a mature adolescent with less development available.

If you look at the the way the sport of kiting is predominantly practised by guys/gals it is about edging to kill/harness the power for aerials, and other manouvres, so most never use all of the power that is available to capture all of the speed. Add to this most people are on rockered boards, with manouvre oriented fins, most aren't trying to go fast and may not even care too?

So anyone who is serious about going fast on a kite, who gets the right fins, flat rocker, and learns how to sail the board flat, will in most conditions under 30 knots, probably be faster than the average windsurfer. It's just that the interest at this stage is not there, but this may change, with this new record.

Pretty amazing stuff!! Wish I had the gonads to do both sports.
elmo
elmo
WA
8890 posts
WA, 8890 posts
31 Dec 2005 9:03pm
Respect
poor relative
poor relative
WA
9106 posts
WA, 9106 posts
31 Dec 2005 9:05pm
Lets race........
would love to try
hardman
hardman
1116 posts
1116 posts
31 Dec 2005 9:06pm
quote:
Originally posted by elmo

Respect



Elmo imagine you and I kitesurfing, there'd be an ambulance on standby, and one off to the nearest emergency dept everytime we got the kite in the air
hardman
hardman
1116 posts
1116 posts
31 Dec 2005 9:09pm
quote:
Originally posted by poor relative

Lets race........
would love to try



What and be humiliated by you........ NO THANKYOU!
poor relative
poor relative
WA
9106 posts
WA, 9106 posts
31 Dec 2005 9:17pm
What was that the other day, "you boost and i'll fang past you"
5 mins later after i crashed and burned......"hmmmm you were fanging along"
yeah man lets race...,
hardman
hardman
1116 posts
1116 posts
31 Dec 2005 9:21pm
quote:
Originally posted by poor relative

What was that the other day, "you boost and i'll fang past you"
5 mins later after i crashed and burned......"hmmmm you were fanging along"
yeah man lets race...,



Now it'll be "PRel, You boost and fang past me, and I'll look like a loser, cool hey.........
poor relative
poor relative
WA
9106 posts
WA, 9106 posts
31 Dec 2005 9:26pm
quote:
Now it'll be "PRel, You boost and fang past me, and I'll look like a loser, cool hey.........


No different to today, yesterday, the day before the day before that...
hardman
hardman
1116 posts
1116 posts
31 Dec 2005 9:35pm
You lose 1 or 2 trillion times in your life and people never let you forget about it
hardman
hardman
1116 posts
1116 posts
31 Dec 2005 9:36pm
quote:
Originally posted by hardman

You lose 1 or 2 ............. trillion times in your life and people never let you forget about it

elmo
elmo
WA
8890 posts
WA, 8890 posts
31 Dec 2005 9:42pm
PR

Ya gotta get Hardie outa bed

It was blowing that hard this arvy he had to take a nanna nap
poor relative
poor relative
WA
9106 posts
WA, 9106 posts
31 Dec 2005 9:43pm
he eats too much lard.
poor relative
poor relative
WA
9106 posts
WA, 9106 posts
31 Dec 2005 9:46pm
and not enough turnip
hardman
hardman
1116 posts
1116 posts
31 Dec 2005 9:46pm
Talking about food, new years eve dinner is just being served, c ya's in the new year!!
poor relative
poor relative
WA
9106 posts
WA, 9106 posts
31 Dec 2005 10:02pm
have a real happy prosperous new year hardie, elmo and other forum users.
Hope it brings everyone lots and lots of strong consistient wind...
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12872 posts
WA, 12872 posts
31 Dec 2005 10:12pm
quote:
Originally posted by poor relative


Hope it brings everyone lots and lots of strong consistient wind...


Are you talking about hardie's new year's eve dinner?????
poor relative
poor relative
WA
9106 posts
WA, 9106 posts
31 Dec 2005 10:20pm
i guess he's having turnips at last!!
fish
fish
WA
155 posts
WA, 155 posts
31 Dec 2005 10:49pm
that was one funny post decrepit
RAL INN
RAL INN
SA
2897 posts
SA, 2897 posts
1 Jan 2006 2:58pm
Somr one mentions Kites speeding and Elmo an PR and Hardyboy monopolise the threads.

Hi John, aka Oldie, Thanks for the quick go of your Board, just let me know the brand of steriods you use, 1 run out and back wrecked me and you cruized all day.

And stop giving cred to kiters on this forum, only 2 more hat sizes and their heads will have more surface area than the kites they fly.

And by the Elmo and crew what did your wives give you for Christmas?
I got a Missle.
And get this it's smaller than my first Kiteboard.

Now all I have to master is the feeling of being shot from a cannon when it gets on the plane.

Best Winds
Tony L

PS we're setting up for another Sandy point week in March, Dare to show us ya style.
elmo
elmo
WA
8890 posts
WA, 8890 posts
1 Jan 2006 3:43pm
quote:
Originally posted by RAL INN

Somr one mentions Kites speeding and Elmo an PR and Hardyboy monopolise the threads.

Hi John, aka Oldie, Thanks for the quick go of your Board, just let me know the brand of steriods you use, 1 run out and back wrecked me and you cruized all day.

And stop giving cred to kiters on this forum, only 2 more hat sizes and their heads will have more surface area than the kites they fly.

And by the Elmo and crew what did your wives give you for Christmas?
I got a Missle.
And get this it's smaller than my first Kiteboard.

Now all I have to master is the feeling of being shot from a cannon when it gets on the plane.

Best Winds
Tony L

PS we're setting up for another Sandy point week in March, Dare to show us ya style.




Tony,

Thought you would add to comments on this one as it's at your local drag strip.

Jeeze your boss looks after you getting you a missile (I or II), I'd just check whether she has bumped your insurance

Would love to come over one day, Hardy keeps trying to convince me about his old stomping ground, unfortunately reality keeps steping into the descission making process. Besides I'd have no excuses for my RAG sailing style on truely flat water.

At least on WA waters we haven't let Kiters beat us yet, so we're doing our bit to keep their ego's in check

Still bloody awesome what he did though.

Let us know how you go with your new toy

All the best

Alby
FilthyAmatuer
FilthyAmatuer
WA
877 posts
WA, 877 posts
1 Jan 2006 4:43pm
can kites go faster than the wind... windsurfers can because of the apparent wind u create yeh? but I am assuming for a kiter to go really fast they would be going strait down wind, and so no apparent wind??? can anyone shed some light on the topic?
nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
1 Jan 2006 6:26pm
quote:
can kites go faster than the wind... windsurfers can because of the apparent wind u create yeh?


Not quite. With any aerofoil you only get lift at 90 degrees to the airflow (+ a bit of drag).

Consider a windsurfer on a reach, at 90 degrees to the wind.

If you add up the vectors involved, you realise that the faster you go, the more apparent wind you have but also the more it blows directly down the board. You can think of this as two components -- the normal wind (90 degrees to the board), which acts to push you forwards, and the apparent wind component (straight down the board) which acts to push you sideways.

So apparent wind doesn't really mean much in this situation, you can't pull yourself up by your shoelaces. You can't get more push by going faster which gives you more push so you go faster again, which gives you even more push... because all apparent wind does is try to push you sideways.

What you need to think about here is:
1) How much forwards force a sail can provide when you're stationary.
2) How much drag your board has when it's moving.

Force forwards from the sail stays pretty much constant, while drag increases the faster you go. At least in normal fluid dynamics it increases as the cube of the speed, although I'd imagine that planing is a completely different kettle of fish... anyone know the answer here?
To cut a long story short when the force forwards of the sail equals the drag from the board then that's your top speed. It's meaningless to say that you can go faster than the wind, except as a measure of how efficient your system is.

Now for kites, the situation should be pretty much the same! The advantage sailboarders have is that our aerofoils are a lot more efficient than existing kite aerofoils, I'd imagine that this will change as kite designers start getting their hands on some decent wing profiles and the technology improves so that you can actually get a decent airfoil section that will fold up into a kite bag. I'd think that this will take a good ten years of development, there's a lot of space for them to move though. If I had a kite I'd experiment with some pool noodles cut to the right shape to change the leading edge profile, Eppler did a lot of work on wing sections and you can get a section to do whatever you want with regard to lift/drag/angle of attack (within reason!). I've got a book on Eppler's wing sections and used it to design a flying wing R/C aeroplane which worked a treat!
oldie
oldie
VIC
356 posts
VIC, 356 posts
2 Jan 2006 12:31am
quote:
Originally posted by nebbian

all apparent wind does is try to push you sideways.

What you need to think about here is:
1) How much forwards force a sail can provide when you're stationary.
2) How much drag your board has when it's moving.


Without resorting to mathematics, I would rather suggest that the apparent wind does nothing except make the sail design more critical?
Tip eddies reduce sail efficiency so we close the gap at the bottom and taper the top. But a kite looks like it would contain the eddies in the same way that a ducted fan does.
Regarding point (2), a tiny fin is the obvious solution?
Tony's Missile has nostrils, where is the science about that?
nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
2 Jan 2006 7:12am
quote:
Without resorting to mathematics, I would rather suggest that the apparent wind does nothing except make the sail design more critical?


You're right, you can look at it a number of ways, but the end result is that apparent wind doesn't push you forwards.

quote:

Tip eddies reduce sail efficiency so we close the gap at the bottom and taper the top. But a kite looks like it would contain the eddies in the same way that a ducted fan does.


Errr... not really, in fact not at all! As you know, eddies form where air from the high pressure side of a wing 'rolls over the edge' and gets to the low pressure portion. As it rolls over it forms a cylinder of rolling air. The more square the wingtip, the more of an eddy you get. Hence the rounded wingtips of the spitfire, and why it was so efficient in WWII. Also hence the 'winglets' on jumbo jets these days.
Kites will also form eddies on the wingtips, although from what I can see they're getting more rounded as the designers figure things out. The eddies will just stream downwind from the tips, and won't be contained in the structure at all.

What I want to see is a kite that looks for all the world like a wedge-tailed eagle, with the spread primary feathers on the wingtips. Those feathers are a really clever invention, they mean that you get lots of little eddies instead of one big one. This means more efficiency! Imagine seeing a 10m wide massive bird of prey soaring along the seashore, with some hardcore dude slashing up the surf underneath


Regarding efficiency, the higher the aspect ratio the more efficient a wing is. So a kite that's 12m tip to tip and 1m front to back (aspect ratio of 12) will be more efficient than a kite that's 6m tip to tip and 2m front to back (aspect ratio of 3), despite their both having the same surface area! It's harder to turn, but it would let you point higher. The same goes for windsurfing sails -- a higher, narrower sail will beat a smaller, wider sail of the same area (all other things being equal of course!)

If I were designing a kite to break a speed record, it would have:
* Aspect ratio of at least ten (most kites look like they're below 3)
* Two strings instead of four (string drag wouldn't be negligible)
* Pointed (yes, POINTED) wingtips like an albatross
* Rigid bar below the kite to spread the bridle attachment points from
* High efficiency airfoil section

It's only a matter of time before someone cottons on to these points...

quote:

Regarding point (2), a tiny fin is the obvious solution?
Tony's Missile has nostrils, where is the science about that?



A small fin would reduce drag slightly, I don't know that much about how planing works though. I do know that you get drag from the boundary between the fin and the board, so a good fast fin would be narrower where it meets the board than a slow fin, not sure about area though. I'd imagine that board shape and wetted area would have a lot more of an effect than fin size though.

The nostrils? Again no idea, I'm thinking it might be a little bit of a gimmick but I've got no evidence to back me up. All I know is that aero and hydro dynamics is a real black art, you can try lots of things that 'should' work but turn out to only slow you down when you stick them in the wind tunnel.
Perhaps Tony could block up the nostrils with a rag, have a couple of GPS runs, then unblock the nostrils and have another go? I'd imagine that there would be very little difference in the speeds, but again I could be wrong.
RAL INN
RAL INN
SA
2897 posts
SA, 2897 posts
2 Jan 2006 11:57am
Elmo, it's a 11 and those intack holes are somewhat suggestive.

As for the disscusion on apparent wind etc. which I didn't read thru all the way, David was pulling those speeds in around 30 -35 kts.
practically the same wind that Foxy did his 43's in a couple of months ago.

In my book apparent wind is what its all about, and what sail designers are basing all their ideas on. Sails are still a far more effective aerofoil than kites hense sails pulling bigger boards at faster speeds and all while being a third the size of kites.

Now if some one came up with a sail that could be flown like a kite, then we would be history.

OH, and by the way, KA Koncepts are taking over at sandy Point.
professor
professor
QLD
277 posts
QLD, 277 posts
6 Jan 2006 9:17am
Hi guys that’s a really good read
Probably of more interest to me then what I have read in places where I have been hanging out.
In addition, this is just the first post I have read in here.

Anyway, often overlooked,

That the vehicle has to be designed so as it is safe and able to be controlled, driven by a pirate that would be you and Eye.

To catch the wind is one thing then to use the apparent wind is another if the sail or kite is able to morph whilst in flight I believe this to be the treasure.

This would allow for far less resistance and much greater apparent wind.

The problem is that it creates a whole other problem a complex structure combine with complex controls to be able to do this.
In this age the materials used are not adequate. When materials are lighter and stronger I am sure that a double skin system could be created that would be able to morph the kite whilst in the air using the pressure created from drag to allow the second skin to take over.
RAL INN
RAL INN
SA
2897 posts
SA, 2897 posts
6 Jan 2006 10:47am
The thinking from F2 on the air ducts is that.

With the cutouts at rear of board, a low pressure area can be created which presses board onto water.

the directing of air into the cutouts equalises this pressure differential.

Boards magazine is supposed to be testing the missile and doing runs with intacts blocked and unblocked.

As far as I'm concerned. It looks real cool so it must be good, and makes for a great handle to carry the board.

I have also been told that the airducts may slightly increase the speed of getting onto the plane.

I am reasonably sure F2 have some experience in board design so maybe there are real benefits.

So for a real test maybe Oldie could drill some huge holes in his GO and tell us about the difference it made.

both kiters and sailboarders go faster than the wind speed and this is due to apparent wind.

Fin size is related to drag.
board wetted area is drag
water surface tension and the breaking of it by the board is probably the real culprit in slowing us down.

So a hydrofoil with more fin area but less surface tension effect should go faster. Or will it?
nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
6 Jan 2006 9:59am
Re: the air ducts:

No doubt the F2 boys are very experienced at making fast boards, I would think that the basic design of the missile (without looking at the nostrils) would probably be extremely quick, and that's what gives you the amazing speeds you can achieve on one. However I don't think that you would get any advantage from the nostrils that you couldn't get by simply angling the rear of the board down slightly. This would create positive not negative pressure and therefore act to hold you up slightly.

The ram air effect on a V8 Supercar charging down conrod at close to 300 km/h gives you at most an extra half a pound of extra pressure (atmospheric pressure there is 14PSI). So you get 3.5% extra pressure. And that's with huge air dams, as much ducting as you want, and a crapload of speed. I'd expect that the nostrils could face backwards and would have just about the same effect. For that matter, you could open up the cutouts to atmosphere directly above the cutout, with no nostrils at all, and you'd have the same effect... hang on that's just like some other boards I know!
But they do look good, and if they make it easier to carry, then, well...


Now for kites:

Kite aerofoils are abysmal, probably the best way to increase top speed on a kite would be to buy several square metres of ripstop nylon, and connect the bottom of the leading edge to a point about halfway along the top skin.
It wouldn't have to be heavy, ripstop is very light, it wouldn't have to have any structural strength at all, but this would eliminate a HUGE amount of form drag that the rear of the bladder provides. I'd expect an increase of top speed by at least 20%. You could tape it on using cloth tape to try it out.
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