In laymans terms please. I can understand how they prevent leeway..Also how are you supposed to sail upwind & use your fin. Ive read you have to push against them but generally if I do that I spin out..Does this only refer to recent boards ( last 10years)..
Also any other design features that help going upwind.I seem to spend all my life trying to get upwind to bear off a bit while others are having fun reaching past..

I'm no expert on fins. I guess at one extreme a board without a fin will just go sideways and cannot point upwind unless the sailor is skilled and can engage the board to try to keep on track.

At the other extreme you get the formula board fins at 70cms. As Mark says its all about lift. As a board with a larger planing area develops more lift and a larger sail generally generates more lift, a bigger fin will generate more lift as water flows past it.

What size fin do you use now? I'm usually use a 48cm fin on my big board up to about 20 knots and go down to a 20cm fin in really windy conditions.

a fin with a thicker foil,thats the leading edge i think, will lift board higher out of the water than thinner edged fin.

use a stiff carbon fin, leading edge b3, not b4 are best fins for going upwind...a softer fin like techtronics are worst.

put all your weight on your backleg, then apply this weight to leeward rail[pressing down with toes and/or lifting heal]. this should rail board up, meaning board is planning on far away rail.

maintain this board angle for as long as possible by trimming board with back leg.

sailing upwind i try to put all weight on backleg, leeward side leg, but upper body i push forward towards nose of board.

hope this helps a little.

OH yeah and PlonkMan's post also reminded me -

More downhaul sometimes.
If you rig with insufficient downhaul the sail is very powerful, but the luff collapses when trying to point hi, due to insufficient skin tension (in the sail / foil).
This is probably not quite so apparent on cambered sails (I have not raced enough to say)

Many times on wave gear I have been planing easily (but not fully powered) and just can't get upwind. I pull on 10mm more downhaul and the board planes just as early.... but suddenly will go upwind.

Gestalt

I never said a deeper fin makes more lift. I said I higher aspect ratio fin (that is, for a given area of fin, longer and thinner makes more lift than short and fat)
I only alluded to the part about aspect ratio for a given area of foil as the O.P said keep it simple
Therefore a 30cm pointer goes upwind better and planes earlier than a 23cm wave fin of same area. Fact.

Chord does not refer to thickness it relates to the length of the fin parallel to the flow (from leading edge to trailing edge.

A thick foil does create more lift but more drag.

Rake affects lift and therefore upwind ability as the same fin but raked back increases chord lenght and therefore changes the aspect ratio..... in effect making the same foil / fin / wing behave a little like it now has a lower aspect ratio.

agree with most comments here but....gestalt says increasing downhaul will improve upwind performance.

increasing downhaul from my exp improves feel heaps,improves topend, better off the wind and a little safer if a freak gust hits you. also helps to close gap between sail + board.

downside is takes longer to plane, does not plane thru lulls as well and biggest downside is pointing angle is significantly reduced.

this may not apply on a wave/freeride sail with centre of power nowhere near as stable.

may not apply also if you choose too large a sail for board size

however a general rule is a tight leach is heaps better for pointing angle than a loose leached sail.

slowboat rigs with lots of downhaul and relative to his ability is hopeless at getting upwind.

petermac33 said...

agree with most comments here but....gestalt says increasing downhaul will improve upwind performance.

increasing downhaul from my exp improves feel heaps,improves topend, better off the wind and a little safer if a freak gust hits you. also helps to close gap between sail + board.

downside is takes longer to plane, does not plane thru lulls as well and biggest downside is pointing angle is significantly reduced.

this may not apply on a wave/freeride sail with centre of power nowhere near as stable.

may not apply also if you choose too large a sail for board size

however a general rule is a tight leach is heaps better for pointing angle than a loose leached sail.

slowboat rigs with lots of downhaul and relative to his ability is hopeless at getting upwind.

somehow feels like de ja vu

my point in increasing downhaul can help upwind is that it gives you a finer entry and opens the leach up which all reduce drag going upwind.

but as i have said in this thread and on other threads, increasing OUTHAUL is the the best way to increase upwind performance.

slowboats upwind performance would be because he rigs his sails to be fast off the wind which also means he would use very little to no outhaul producing a deep forward draft in his sails. if he was to increase outhaul and keep his downhaul the same he would go upwind faster and more efficiently.

the Koncept for eg was not designed to be the fastest sail to the top of the course. it is designed as a high speed blaster. that said the KA boys set the sails with more outhaul for slalom racing. now he is on Pryde i am certain it would be the same outcome. he rigs his sails for off the wind.

so on a short board a tight leach is bad for upwind.

to be honest every racer or top speed sailor on this forum increases outhaul to go upwind. whether via an adjustable outhaul other means.

sink the rail to climb up wind also

Another trick which might help is to try to get upwind in a series of bursts. What I mean is to get going as fast as you can and then head further upwind until you nearly drop off the plane, then bear off a little to once again pick up speed.

Hi peter,

i'm not sure why you are focussing on the downhaul comment. why it was mentioned was because an underdownhauled sail has too much drag and no chance of going upwind.

as i said above to improve upwind performance of a sail (ie, a correctly downhauled sail) pulling on another 2cm of OUTHAUL will improve upwind performance dramatically.

obviously with all things in life it can be over done.

the reason you are bagging your sail out in an effort to go upwind is because your sail is not working efficiently as it is under downhauled so you are needing power instead of performance to try and get upwind. increasing the top end of your sails performance will increase speed which in turn increases power. increasing board speed increase apparent wind speed and again increases power.

the reality is your 5.8m RS6 is a sail typically used in 30+ knots.

i guess we agree to dissagree. but at least ask some pro and expert sailors on other forums before taking my amateur word for it. i'd be interested to see what they think also.

Iceman said...

Another trick which might help is to try to get upwind in a series of bursts. What I mean is to get going as fast as you can and then head further upwind until you nearly drop off the plane, then bear off a little to once again pick up speed.

Sounds good but a lot of the time there isnt enough wind for me to plane very well .. although that could be technique at times..

i went in search of an experts opinion and found this from peter hart called the upwind challenge.

Sail Set
Avoid the extremes. If you bag the sail out too much in search of power it becomes inefficient. It can't exhaust, feels heavy in the hands and drives you sideways.
With too little outhaul, the sail goes back handed. You'll then direct the pressure into the back foot and risk overloading the fin.
Too much outhaul (and downhaul) and you pull the guts out of the sail, flatten the foil too much and end up going nowhere.

High boom.
Sailing upwind in moderate winds, your sheeting angle is closed - i.e. you'll be sheeted right in with the foot of the sail over the board's centre-line. If you have a low boom, under about shoulder height, your back-side will be skimming the waves. A higher boom leaves you in a more upright stance with your legs driving against the rails at a more efficient angle. Adjustable harness lines can also you're your cause especially on bigger free-ride kit. Racers tend to shorten their lines from about 30 down to or the upwind leg as it lifts their hips and makes the board sail more off the fin.

Fine size
The obvious way to help you sail upwind is to fit a bigger fin - but be cautious. Stay within the recommendations. The 133 Futura, for example, is designed to accommodate fins from about 40-50 cm. When you're setting out, you're often not making best use of the power and perhaps not sailing as fast and precisely as you should. The bigger fin will give you more lift and resistance at slow speeds. You can use a bit of back foot and lean on it when you're barely planing, and still get a positive reaction. It's your instant upwind companion. A possible down side is that a big fin can make you lazy and heavy footed. Ultimately a smaller fin will behave better in the manoeuvres AND drive you upwind just as well - you just have to sail faster.

TACTICS
You can improve your upwind performance tenfold just by being smarter. Tactics in this area is a massive subject but I'll limit myself to just 2 key tips.
1. Don't waste ground. Liken upwind sailing to rowing upstream on a river. Every time you lose concentration or stop to pick your nose, you lose ground.
The most popular mistake is to leave the beach off the plane and just drift off on a broad reach. Even without a daggerboard, it's possible to sail higher upwind off the plane than on the plane. Use the windward rail for extra resistance. Stand forward of the straps, press on the heels to sink it, steer upwind until you find that point where the board stops tracking and starts crabbing sideways. Having made ground upwind, you feel good about bearing away in the gusts to get planing.

2. Quick starts. Standing, lying, sitting in the water with your kit, in a force four you drift downwind ant about 1 kph = a slow walk. Now you may claim that you don't uphaul or waterstartt deliberately slowly and that if you could get going more quickly, you would but … actually a loit of peopke do waste a liot of time, cursing their luck/incompetence or floating around having a breather. A few points here:
1. The best to have a rest is in the shallows with your feet on the seabed.
2. The longer you hang arounbd before trying to recover the rig and waterstart, the harder it is as the rig has time to sink.

3. Clock the shifts. Spotting and reacting to changes in the wind direction sounds like the domain of the pro racer. In reality, at a basic level, it's quite easy and, at many locations, is officially the easiest way to make massive leaps upwind

i had read this peter hart article before.sounds good in theory, but gestalt sorry for being stubborn, less downhaul still equals higher pointing angles[unless wind is too strong].

i sail downwind to peli /point twice per week, around 2kms from lucky bay.

i am slow going downwind to peli/point but on way back to lucky bay i think i have it sussed.

have experimented with so many different settings on sail to get that extra one percent.

if wind was consistently more than 20knots then a bit more downhaul may get me higher pointing angle. 25knots+ then definately.

Im not going to comment of fins etc but i think what is being asked is how to get upwind better as opposed to fin aspect etc...i allways had trouble getting upwind as everyone alse was zapping past me( exactly the same as your issue ! ; i would slog away upwind scared of having to do the walk of shame wondering why i wasnt planing like every one else !!)...these are a couple of things i put into practice which helped straight away...bear off and get planing well( even a bit downwind !!)..get some speed..tilt the whole rig towards the back of the board...lift up in the forward footstrap and push the opposite way with the rear strap( almost as if you are trying to "twist the board via your feet"...this will drive the board upwind via the fin and the opposite rail of the board...remember SPEED is the key...dont panic about having to go across or downwind a bit to get planing..pick up speed quickly and then use the fin and rail to drive upwind...thats my 10 cents worth ...good luck

You don't need a big fin. Big lumps of sailors on little wave boards manage it nicely.

But it sure does help!

ikw777 said...

You don't need a big fin. Big lumps of sailors on little wave boards manage it nicely.

But it sure does help!

agreed