So one foil will handle all conditions right? I mean it'd be crazy if we needed a quiver of foils wouldn't it? Cos we've already got a quiver of sails, a quiver of boards... Then again how much do foils cost? Maybe they are cheap?

Shifu said..
So one foil will handle all conditions right? I mean it'd be crazy if we needed a quiver of foils wouldn't it? Cos we've already got a quiver of sails, a quiver of boards... Then again how much do foils cost? Maybe they are cheap?

If you one one sail, one foil, one board, you can get the iQFoil. Or you can get an LT

This racing at the PWA is absolutely not an indicator for how the fin vs foil will play out. After speaking to most the riders there, the conditions in Tiberias are truly horrific, the organisation is putting the course in the most gusty area of wind. Yesterday in fact they estimated it to be around 7 knots gusting 25 knots with tight angles on the course. Fin is absolutely not obsolete, I trained all winter for this upcoming PWA season already witnessing fin vs foil and in 15 knots of consistent wind the fin still wins out by a decent margin. The PWA this year may only have this event and if it does then I can't see this question being answered for spectators for at least another year. Try to remember that everyone at that event is a pro windsurfer, they have done the testing and racing over the last 18 months and they already know what is faster, they've just run into conditions that are so unusual.

J. Battye GBR-48 said..
This racing at the PWA is absolutely not an indicator for how the fin vs foil will play out. After speaking to most the riders there, the conditions in Tiberias are truly horrific, the organisation is putting the course in the most gusty area of wind. Yesterday in fact they estimated it to be around 7 knots gusting 25 knots with tight angles on the course. Fin is absolutely not obsolete, I trained all winter for this upcoming PWA season already witnessing fin vs foil and in 15 knots of consistent wind the fin still wins out by a decent margin. The PWA this year may only have this event and if it does then I can't see this question being answered for spectators for at least another year. Try to remember that everyone at that event is a pro windsurfer, they have done the testing and racing over the last 18 months and they already know what is faster, they've just run into conditions that are so unusual.

Yeah, 1 swallow doesnt make a summer. Lets see a few events in more typical conditions.

RichardG said..

J. Battye GBR-48 said..
This racing at the PWA is absolutely not an indicator for how the fin vs foil will play out. After speaking to most the riders there, the conditions in Tiberias are truly horrific, the organisation is putting the course in the most gusty area of wind. Yesterday in fact they estimated it to be around 7 knots gusting 25 knots with tight angles on the course. Fin is absolutely not obsolete, I trained all winter for this upcoming PWA season already witnessing fin vs foil and in 15 knots of consistent wind the fin still wins out by a decent margin. The PWA this year may only have this event and if it does then I can't see this question being answered for spectators for at least another year. Try to remember that everyone at that event is a pro windsurfer, they have done the testing and racing over the last 18 months and they already know what is faster, they've just run into conditions that are so unusual.

Interesting perspective. That said the best sailor must be winning in terms of tuning, choice of gear, trim, tactics and speed given the open rules allowing foil v fin. Nico Goyard is the likely the best foiler out there anyway. Gusty conditions is no excuse. There should be no excuse to lose at these levels. Around a course maybe truly the foil has an advantage in average even gusty waterways around the world, certainly having been out on sailing courses seeing foil racers that is clear. I doubt the fin is obsolete it is just a different non-foiling class. The fastest class is also not necessarily the most popular.

I watched the stream last night live, it was more interesting than I expected. Nico Goyard is sailing extremely well and nailing his starts, its worth noting he is beating everyone consistently fin or foil. His big advantage is if he is behind at the first mark he can glide through and the fins have a much harder time (and it looks like some of the "regular" sailors need more time on the foil to catch him - they are not as good foilers as Nico) then the race is over, once Nico is in the front even if his straight-line speed is less than the fins his cornering is far more superior and more than makes up for it. I was left feeling that it wasn't MORE wind the fins need to be successful, just more consistent and without what seems like a permanent hole at the first mark.

I was wondering, does anyone know are the foils subject to the production rules as per boards and rigs?
interesting times ahead I reckon!

Are the guys on foils using the same size sails as the fins?

Ben1973 said..
Are the guys on foils using the same size sails as the fins?

Some were using 7.8-8.8 from what I heard but Goyard was on 6.0

Awalkspoiled said..
It's really exciting and inspiring to watch - like watching Robby back in the day, except Robby did it with finesse and Goyard is doing it with equipment and guts. Goyard has such an advantage in the jibes because he can come in from super high and leave the mark tight, or drop way low and climb back on the next reach. No tactics at all, from the other guys. In heat four Iacchino had him in trouble for a few seconds with dirty air but did nothing to try to keep him there.

Yeah it's wild. Just watched Goyard get out and beat Vonk (who was on a fin), who also got passed by Nico Prien (foil) right at the end.

Albeau was in that race to but Prien had a better start from the looks of it.

I think Goyard may have just stayed off of fins and mastered the foil. Nobody sails the foil as well as him right now because of it.

Awalkspoiled said..
It's really exciting and inspiring to watch - like watching Robby back in the day, except Robby did it with finesse and Goyard is doing it with equipment and guts. Goyard has such an advantage in the jibes because he can come in from super high and leave the mark tight, or drop way low and climb back on the next reach. No tactics at all, from the other guys. In heat four Iacchino had him in trouble for a few seconds with dirty air but did nothing to try to keep him there.

Robby probably had the "finesse" for sure but he had talent, skill and he also had the "equipment" (ie the best boards and sails) back in the early World Cup racing. He also had "guts" to pump when other sailors would not and for example at the Sony Surflite Slalom in 1985 the following observations were made: "..saw Robby Naish fall at the start of the slalom final at the Sony at Long Reef Sydney in 1985. He got caught in the shore break and lost half the first leg. He got back up and started pumping. Nobody else was pumping - they were locked in and flying in the 15 + knot cross shore breeze. By the end of the second leg he'd caught the leaders all top internationals, ripped through, and blitzed them. They had only pumped at the start and out of the gybes while Robby pumped the whole race......had never seen anything like it. When he went through the finish he gybed hard and took off out to sea, like had a lot of unwinding to do....knew then and there... had to learn to pump !"

Plenty of videos of slalom racers at the Gorge fully pumping, and unhooked, thru half of a 6 ball slalom race.

PhilUK said..

RichardG said..

PhilUK said..
I think the 3rd mark is in a permanent wind shadow. They should move it. Even the foilers on 7.7m sails are pumping out of the gybe.

Is that not part of sailing ? The sailors can deal with these issues and if they can't they don't deserve to win.

If you are 1st at the mark and there is a massive lull you cant get going again. Then everyone else arrives in a gust and they plane through their gybes. Its a lottery.

Hence why you should be on a foil like Nico Goyard. A foiling set up as demonstrated on Day 1... will accelerate and exit out of the gybe marks with speed leading the race as the rest of the finned pack gets stuck behind. If Dennis Conner was a windsurfer foiler he would use one like Goyard. There is no excuse to lose as you suggest for these professional sailors.

RichardG said..

PhilUK said..

RichardG said..

PhilUK said..
I think the 3rd mark is in a permanent wind shadow. They should move it. Even the foilers on 7.7m sails are pumping out of the gybe.

Is that not part of sailing ? The sailors can deal with these issues and if they can't they don't deserve to win.

If you are 1st at the mark and there is a massive lull you cant get going again. Then everyone else arrives in a gust and they plane through their gybes. Its a lottery.

Hence why you should be on a foil like Nico Goyard. A foiling set up as demonstrated on Day 1... will accelerate and exit out of the gybe marks with speed leading the race as the rest of the finned pack gets stuck behind. If Dennis Conner was a windsurfer foiler he would use one like Goyard. There is no excuse to lose as you suggest for these professional sailors.

In that case, they shouldn't roller cricket wickets, lay flat football pitches & tennis courts, they are professionals and should get on with it and cope random bounces of the ball.
Its the randomness of gusts and lulls which is the problem. Like I said, it turns it into a lottery.
Even the foilers were pumping in 1 heat, did the leader have to?

From Goyard's facebook page:
Yesterday:

Great battles again on the water yesterday and 2 other bullets !

Really good reaches with the fins and especially with @matteoita140_official and @mateusisaac ! They were killing me on the reach and I was catching back on the jibes, the result would have probably be different in a different wind at mark 3 ...



23rd


Second day is done and an other victory so far !
On that race, almost every one was on the foil as the race course was even more in a gusty and shifty wind than the previous day... Gust up to 20 knots and holes down to 7-8 knots was clearly not manageable on the fin...

We know it is for the show and to get closer to the shore for the public which is definitely what the sport was needing for... But pushing so much in that direction makes us loose something. This is not how a windsurfer is used to be sailing. If there is a steady wind 200m further, a windsurfer will get there to sail and it is how we train all year long...

I feel like there must be some intermediate solution regarding the position of the race course allowing to be both competitive on the fin and foil.



Anyway, there is still 3 days to go and from the forecast it should be a bit lighter than what we had previously ! So let's see how is goes !

22nd.


First race of the 2021 PWA season in Israel and first ever confrontation between foil and fin !

My first ever win on a PWA slalom race came earlier than I thought !

And that was also the absolute first time in windsurfing history of a foil beating fins on a slalom race !

We all knew that day was coming but I wasn't expecting AT ALL to be able to make it happen in the wind we had yesterday.



The gust were up to 25+ knots and it was some hard times sometime on the water with that shifty and gusty wind !



I saw so many reactions on internet so far about this race and I'd just like to say that even though the gusts were really strong, the format of the race, the angles of the marks (really tight on some races), and the big wind variations made it really hard for the fins ! Not sure it would have been the same game in a steady wind !



But for sure, foil is coming and is getting more and more competitive !



Congrats to @maciekrutko and @enricomarotti401 who showed on both finals that they were crazy quick !


End of Goyards posts. Dont ever copy/paste from FB as it really f'#ks up the formatting and took me a while to edit it!



Wise words and quite humble. He knows it isnt a level playing field. He also knows that if it had been a slightly different course layout (more normal downwind slalom) he might not have won so many.
One of the spots I sail at has gusty lighter wind for the first 500m off the beach, then it is steady and stronger wind. I always sail the extra 500m out. So do all the foilers.
Its good that now with foils they can race in more variable winds and wind shifts. With a higher degree of certainty of getting a result it will hopefully lead to more sponsorship. I think Ben Proffitt said that an Israeli TV channel was covering it live, as windsurfing has a higher profile than in most countries. So when they go there next year, everyone will be prepared. They will go back, as they event organisers seem keen and are willing to stump up the prize money.
But please move that mark and make for better racing. Windsurfing isnt a spectator sport in an arena like football.

Last race featured what looked like a pretty classy piece of sportsmanship from Goyard. He didn't even need to race at all but instead appeared to have rigged really small in spite of the very light conditions, presumably to give the other guys access to the extra 0.3 and keep the race for overall second place competitive. He looked to be more than a meter smaller than anyone else and didn't push the start either.

What's the story with Albeau DND/DQ/Apology, does anyone know? He must have done something off-color but what? I gather he cracked some ribs in that crash but hadn't heard anything else about his week...

aeroegnr said..

RichardG said..


Robby probably had the "finesse" for sure but he had talent, skill and he also had the "equipment" (ie the best boards and sails) back in the early World Cup racing. He has also had "guts" to pump when other sailors would not and for example at the Sony Surflite Slalom in 1985 the following observations were made: "..saw Robby Naish fall at the start of the slalom final at the Sony at Long Reef Sydney in 1985. He got caught in the shore break and lost half the first leg. He got back up and started pumping. Nobody else was pumping - they were locked in and flying in the 15 + knot cross shore breeze. By the end of the second leg he'd caught the leaders all top internationals, ripped through, and blitzed them. They had only pumped at the start and out of the gybes while Robby pumped the whole race......had never seen anything like it. When he went through the finish he gybed hard and took off out to sea, like had a lot of unwinding to do....knew then and there... had to learn to pump !"

I hope there is a video of this somewhere?

Not to my knowledge but the statement above is attributed to author Paul Davies of New South Wales in this Freesail early 1990s article: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/How-to-pump?page=1

Sony Surflite 1984: see: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/International-Sony-Wavesailing-Classic-Long-Reef?page=1&groupID=827