Once again, there is a difference in criteria.
I only rec foil on short masts underpowered.
Course racing is done with 90-110 cm masts with big sails within 2 meters of Formula sizing.
I was transfering to you, course race criteria.
But really, there WILL BE a trickle down effect.
Already, several advanced rec foilers are using full carbon setups after a couple years of alu and say they feel the difference and enjoy the extra low drag and light feel.
In windsurfing fins, the correct or favored amount of flex is needed or appreciated. No stiff like alu fins in performance windsurfing, NOT speed, not waves, not freestyle, not freeride.
Some amount of flex is needed.
And if alu provides that correct flex, then it WILL BE the material of choice for the foil mast.

CJW, and all the detractors.....
YES, I am bored. Shelter in place, you know?
Who the frick cares HOW I say things? You are not a bunch of sensitive sissies.
Just glean what you need and dump the rest!
Unless you actually ARE.

Yes, it's true that when make the big purchase, and it works well, you like to spread the wealth.
Gwarn rigs about 2 miles upwind of me. Advanced rec foiler. Big dude, lots of stress on his gear sailing at a semi sketch body of water.
He needs reliable gear that won't break down. Nearest downwind catch beach is 2 miles, and every day is 51-57 degree water and 50-62 air temps.

The slingshot masts are by far the least stiff of any I've felt and I can definitely feel it when riding. Even running small sails and narrow boards they have an unsteadiness that race foils just don't. Also they frequently come in with loose fasteners.
By comparison Moses foils feel like they are on rails and even the relatively flexible Horue is far stiffer.

And I expected you to be familiar with course race fin characteristics.
The best are tuned to rider weight, preference, chop, and wind conditions.
NOBODY just uses the stiffest.
Even 240 lbs racers do no use the stiffest fins for most conditions.

LeeD said..
And I expected you to be familiar with course race fin characteristics.
The best are tuned to rider weight, preference, chop, and wind conditions.
NOBODY just uses the stiffest.
Even 240 lbs racers do no use the stiffest fins for most conditions.

There is a massive difference in whats required/favourable in a fin as opposed to a foil mast. Surely you understand that.

There might be a slight argument that a flexible mast allows the foil section to stay static when the rider moves which may carry some benefit when youre just travelling upwind. But the rest of the time you want as a immediate response as possible, thats why stiffer is better.


In no way shape or form is flex good for a piece of carbon. Laminated carbon is immensely strong for what it is, but continuous flexing eventually breaks the resin down. (It would take years and years to happen in a well constructed foil)

LeeD said..
Subbie, read your post again.
Now think a bit. What sport needs the stiffest that can be made?
Not even airplane wings or raceboard rudders.
The stiffest that works for the balance of weight, load forces, wind and water pressure, rider preference, forgiveness, durability not just for the part, but also for the adjoining parts and the comfort of the rider.
It's shades of gray, different for different riders and conditions.
Light riders might need softer foil masts.
The world is NOT NOT NOT just black or white.

A high performance windsurfing fin (and airplane wing and rudder) is meant to lift and dynamically increase power when needed or bleed off excess power according to conditions, thats why there is a progressive flex curve towards the tip, and these curves ideally vary according to rider weight, conditions, technique and goal etc. A mast is very different.

Every rider ever needs the stiffest mast possible, its function is not to lift (which is obvious by the very low drag / low lift profiles used, so no bleeding of power is needed), but to be the connection between the rider and the fuselage wings. It is meant to carry the weight of the rider over the to the fuselage and wings and transfer the rider imput, nothing more! Delay in that connection is detrimental, hence stiffer is better! Torsionally a mast can not be too stiff, any distortion in torsion is massive, bend stiffness is less important, albeit still very significant, in my experience the stiffer the mast, the less outside interference (like waves) is fealt and the more control you have. Every time i've tried a stiffer mast I've fealt nothing but an increase in control and stability, the more difficult the conditions the bigger the difference gets.

Maybe there comes a point when masts become too stiff, I wouldnt know what the result of that would be in practice. (Since you know maybe explain what one would experience with a mast which is too stiff?) In my opinion, currently we (as humanity) are not yet able to produce "optimal" / "stiff enough" masts, let alone masts which are too stiff!

Everything mentioned here also goes for fuselages by the way, torsion in a fuselage is also a massive factor in ease and comfort.

i just want lighter. i hardly care about stiffer at this point... i'm too old to carry this **** to the water... i just want it to be lighter

I wonder when this material will hit the foiling scene. 33% lighter than AL.



alliteinc.com/

LeeD said..
Does that sound like state of the art thinking from 1986?
Sail masts need correctly tuned flex.
Boards all need some flex.
Fins all need flex.
Riders need flexibility.
Harnesses flex.
Sails all flex.
But you say foil masts should only be the stiffest possible.
Let's see. MikeZ's thinking? Or WofH's?

Yes I do say that. I dont know Mike, but I've seen the Z foil, last season it wasnt competative.

Contrary to most of your examples, the mast doesnt have to compensate for anything, its purely the connection between the rider and the wings. Sure the wings can bleed off power, but the mast has to be a stiff as possible to directly transfer forces from 1m below the rider to the board and vice versa. The mast doesnt have to absorb any shocks, changes in preassure, nothing, so why would you not make it as stiff as possible.

Like I said somewhere earlier, maybe there comes a point (I dont know when or why) where masts become too stiff, but we are not yet able to make those anyway, so having as stiff as possible as the goal would be the best way to go for now.

Please explain to me why a mast would need to bend or flex under any circumstances, instead of coming up with examples which indeed flex and bend, but with a totally different function. Also, what would one feel in practice when a mast is "too stiff"??

For the topic it all doesnt really matter, the Phantasm mast will probably be stiff enough by a good margin.

Concession to WofH.
You are probably CORRECT about, as stiff a foil mast as possible with current hollow alloy technology. As thin as we want the foil mast, it's probably impossible to prevent side deflection from wind and water loads.
The only possible reason for wanting some small amount of flex would be parts preservation. Preserve the integrity of the board, and provide some amount of forgiveness to the rider.
With long hollow carbon fiber, it appears slight or moderate flex can last longer than stiffer setups. Like racecar foils, the carbon breaks down when subjected to side loads and most are replaced bi annually or even more often.
A soft flexing spoiler is less efficient.
I have seen several cracked foil masts from what appears to be sideload, not frontal impacts. It just happened to be on foil masts that were made stiffer than normal thru layup orientation, # of layers...more..and lighter weight carbon.

Didn't know there was a Z-foil.
Mike makes several kitefoils currently, the bigger also used by his 2 windfoil team riders.
In the past, both men's and women's kitefoil US champs were riding his foils.
Zaicheck.

Very important, isn't it.

utcminusfour said..

sunsetsailboards said..
i just want lighter. i hardly care about stiffer at this point... i'm too old to carry this **** to the water... i just want it to be lighter

I agree! I know the free ride foils can be made lighter.

It is definately possible to go lighter, but you do sacrifice sturdiness. If you made a hoverglide in alu half as heavy it would bend (both the mast and fuselage) if you jump, I know, we (F-One) have tried! Carbon is a solution ofcourse, but an expensive one if done right. Its quite simple really, if you would gladly have a foil which doesnt have jumping covered under warrenty you can go light with alu aswell (and keep cost down)!

At F-One we went with the carbon plane, to guarantee stiffness, sturdyness with low weight, and to compensate for the little heavier (stiffer/sturdier compared to 2019) alu mast we made for 2020. The alu mast keeps te cost down with shop prices 1300-1400E, if a customer would want really light they can get a seperate carbon mast or buy as a pack.

What I would have found to be a genius move if all phantasm and hoverglide parts were interchangable, so you can pick and choose your parts to have perfect combi of strength, weight, and cost for you personally.

On the water you dont really feel the weight anyway, so I personally prefer heavy but sturdy over light weight, but yeah, I'm an atlethic 24 year old with a good back ;).