"Something to be well aware of: many wingies barely float you, and unless you are on a big one they share with kites a non existent upwind capability once you are off the foil ..."

Not true! If there is enough wind to hold the wing up (two or three knots) you can make your way slowly upwind. It's all about technique -- being able to pump the wing to create forward pressure in order to slog upwind. You need a board that will float you (or one that will float you in a few knots of wind) and the technique to know how to get back -- most windsurfers know how to do this -- slow pumps will keep you moving forward and close to the wind or even slogging slightly upwind. If you windsurf and are on a sinker and the wind dies completely you've got a problem -- you've got to mostly de-rig and try and paddle back in dragging your rig or putting the rig underneath you on the board -- easier to do with a wing.

Any water sport can be dangerous and everyone needs a Plan B when they venture out by themselves. Most of us know someone who had to be rescued.

These wings have a huge wind range -- the low end is amazing if you have the technique and the equipment. The ability to pump both the wing and the board gives the wing a big advantage over just about everything in low winds.

Here's what the best can do in low to next to nothing winds.

duzzi said..
wingies ... can take regular guys or gals a long time to learn. Certainly way longer than it would take to learn to windsurf.

I think you are painting the wrong picture. Sure, it "learn to windsurf" means going back and forth in light wind on a huge beginner board, that can be learned in an hour. But nobody keeps doing that, and learning to plane in the harness takes a lot longer.

There can be a surprisingly large spread in how long it takes people to "get" winging. I know on windsurfer who has placed at national and international races who needed a few months to learn winging. I also know another who was foiling for most of her session the second time she tried, and foiling through most of her jibes maybe 10 session later.

Perhaps the best example is another guy who followed the advice he had gotten from others, and was ready to give up trying after a number of very frustrating sessions. He had been told to "definitely get a 4.2 wing, not larger", but weighed in at around 90 kg. He'd probably need about 25 mph to get going on this wing. But around here, we get that much wind only about once or twice a month. If we get it, it comes with several feet high chop at most launches. Even worse, he reported to prefer to windsurf if it was that strong. So he got very isolated sessions over the summer in far-from-ideal conditions, and never got close to controlled foiling. It was a bit like trying to learn to use footstraps and plane with a 4.2 m sail. Doable for some people at some select locations, but most windsurfers at most locations would not really have a chance.
He eventually got a bigger wing that allowed him to try more often, and in less wind and chop, and reported a lot more success.

Equipment can be a huge issue when trying to learn winging. Some wings are a lot more intuitive than others, and some are just bad. Very good guys can still get the bad wings to work, but regular guys will struggle a lot. One such wing that from a manufacturer that makes very well regarded wing boards got very bad reviews from two local wingers at both the low end and the top end. Similar issues can arise with boards too small for learning.

boardsurfr said..

duzzi said..
wingies ... can take regular guys or gals a long time to learn. Certainly way longer than it would take to learn to windsurf.

I think you are painting the wrong picture. Sure, it "learn to windsurf" means going back and forth in light wind on a huge beginner board, that can be learned in an hour. But nobody keeps doing that, and learning to plane in the harness takes a lot longer.

There can be a surprisingly large spread in how long it takes people to "get" winging. I know on windsurfer who has placed at national and international races who needed a few months to learn winging. I also know another who was foiling for most of her session the second time she tried, and foiling through most of her jibes maybe 10 session later.

Perhaps the best example is another guy who followed the advice he had gotten from others, and was ready to give up trying after a number of very frustrating sessions. He had been told to "definitely get a 4.2 wing, not larger", but weighed in at around 90 kg. He'd probably need about 25 mph to get going on this wing. But around here, we get that much wind only about once or twice a month. If we get it, it comes with several feet high chop at most launches. Even worse, he reported to prefer to windsurf if it was that strong. So he got very isolated sessions over the summer in far-from-ideal conditions, and never got close to controlled foiling. It was a bit like trying to learn to use footstraps and plane with a 4.2 m sail. Doable for some people at some select locations, but most windsurfers at most locations would not really have a chance.
He eventually got a bigger wing that allowed him to try more often, and in less wind and chop, and reported a lot more success.

Equipment can be a huge issue when trying to learn winging. Some wings are a lot more intuitive than others, and some are just bad. Very good guys can still get the bad wings to work, but regular guys will struggle a lot. One such wing that from a manufacturer that makes very well regarded wing boards got very bad reviews from two local wingers at both the low end and the top end. Similar issues can arise with boards too small for learning.

Good points, and your examples I think depict the situation very well.

First, foiling, in any variation, is not easy for everybody. You pro-level sailor is a good example, with the woman providing the counter-example. Second, learning to foil means learning a new sport, and it requires time and commitment. It is not something than you can pick up a day here and a day there.

Which is pretty much my point ... saying that foiling is easy, and easier than normal sailing, I think is missing part of the picture.

Hi

It's clear the different opinions and experiences, and there are many factors that affect the facts:

Regarding which sport is easier to learn (windfoiling or wingfoiling), I wrote from a skilled windsurfer or kitesurfer starting point. The other day I met an skilled wingsurfer on the beach and told me for him had been more difficult to learn wingfoiling than windfoiling, and he practises both.

Regarding shlogging, the other day I saw three wingfoilers which couldn't come back to the beach and needed a boat, and there were at least 6-7 knots. Some couldn't even stand up and some others could stand up but not getting upwind. I guess due to different skills/equipment.

Regarding the early flight and wind range we have to compare with same wing/sail and foil size, but also same age!!. Another colleague in this forum told me he knows 18 years old guys, who could windfoil in 10-12 knots with 4,5 m2 sail, 85 litres boards and 1000 cm2 front wing. Obviously these young guys must weigh 60 Kgs and be able to pump like a beast, and this gives to his 4,5 m2 sail an enormous wind range. These are the guys we see at the wingfoiling marketing campaigns: young and fit guys who can pump a lot. Anyway, I would like to know how wings can have more wind range if they are less rigid than a sail. Many people say so, I'm not doubting it, I want to understand it.

Unfortunately most of the young guys are going to wingfoiling so the comparison with many of us, old traditional windsurfers is not fair. Thus, we worsen windfoiling's wind range and early flying. Why do the youngs go wing? One of the reasons is because marketing focus of the brands is in wingfoiling. IMO WWF could be shown as attractive as wing. The coolest thing is what young people prefer most. Older people are more practical. The marketing campaigns are designed with a purpose and get their goals for sure.

What it's quite interesting is that there are many participants of this windfoiling forum who see many advantages in wingfoiling over windfoiling. Why they don't practise it and leave windfoiling? Is it a matter of laziness to learn a new sport? weight? age? other?

Don't misunderstand me, I only want to have more information to decide if I have to go wingfoiling. I can't rent it at the surrounding beaches.

Lecum said..
Hi

It's clear the different opinions and experiences, and there are many factors that affect the facts:

Regarding which sport is easier to learn (windfoiling or wingfoiling), I wrote from a skilled windsurfer or kitesurfer starting point. The other day I met an skilled wingsurfer on the beach and told me for him had been more difficult to learn wingfoiling than windfoiling, and he practises both.

Regarding shlogging, the other day I saw three wingfoilers which couldn't come back to the beach and needed a boat, and there were at least 6-7 knots. Some couldn't even stand up and some others could stand up but not getting upwind. I guess due to different skills/equipment.

Regarding the early flight and wind range we have to compare with same wing/sail and foil size, but also same age!!. Another colleague in this forum told me he knows 18 years old guys, who could windfoil in 10-12 knots with 4,5 m2 sail, 85 litres boards and 1000 cm2 front wing. Obviously these young guys must weigh 60 Kgs and be able to pump like a beast, and this gives to his 4,5 m2 sail an enormous wind range. These are the guys we see at the wingfoiling marketing campaigns: young and fit guys who can pump a lot. Anyway, I would like to know how wings can have more wind range if they are less rigid than a sail. Many people say so, I'm not doubting it, I want to understand it.

Unfortunately most of the young guys are going to wingfoiling so the comparison with many of us, old traditional windsurfers is not fair. Thus, we worsen windfoiling's wind range and early flying. Why do the youngs go wing? One of the reasons is because marketing focus of the brands is in wingfoiling. IMO WWF could be shown as attractive as wing. The coolest thing is what young people prefer most. Older people are more practical. The marketing campaigns are designed with a purpose and get their goals for sure.

What it's quite interesting is that there are many participants of this windfoiling forum who see many advantages in wingfoiling over windfoiling. Why they don't practise it and leave windfoiling? Is it a matter of laziness to learn a new sport? weight? age? other?

Don't misunderstand me, I only want to have more information to decide if I have to go wingfoiling. I can't rent it at the surrounding beaches.

Pretty certain wingfoiling is easier to master than windfoiling

Most people find wings have bigger ranges than sails (but skilled windfoilers have wide wind ranges too, if their gear is set up right)

Wing foil speed is a function of what kind of wing they put on their board, just like windfoiling

Wing foiling is cooler than windfoiling forsure. Just like kitesurfing is cooler than windsurfing, except for wave sailors, they are the most cool.

Pretty certain wingfoiling has an advantage in very light air. My mate who is a few pounds over my weight and in his 50s, was foiling 50% of the time while I was foiling 5% of the time. Wind was probably 10-12 mph

He 90L, 6 or 7m wing, infinity 99
Me 143L, 5.7m sail, infinity 99

We don't windsurf because we think its easier. If we wanted something easy we would all be kitesurfing. We windsurf because we love windsurfing, same goes for me with windfoiling. I dig it heaps. Do I need something easier? no. Can i appreciate the things wingfoiling offers? forsure. Just like I appreciate the things kiting offers.

But as the title of this thread says, most people have ditched windfoiling for the wing and those coming from windsurfing are just going straight to the wing.

I've been windsurfing for just over 4 years, windfoiling for 2.5 years, I'm 36 and 90kg (just for a data point). I can foil gybes much easier than I can plane through them and it took easily over a year before I could manage my first foiling gybes, arguably I'm still working on planing through with wave boards. I'm not an exceptional sailor in either discipline and I initially learned in an area of light wind which didn't help.
Most windsurfers and wingers I know are significantly older than I am. I know several where I used to live (most common foiling sail for me there was 7.2m, very light wind) who have gone from windfoiling with 7-9m sails and now wing with 6m. All say how much easier transitions are with the wing.

The people who struggle most with foiling seem to have spent a lot of time windsurfing in one particular discipline rather than being generalists. Wave and freestyle sailors seem most able to adapt where slalom and B&J struggle. I'm guessing the wing is similar, if you are set in your ways the transition will be harder than from a fresh start.
I know very experienced windsurfers who started windfoiling when I did who still can't foil a gybe. They mostly came from a raceboard background.

dejavu said..

thedoor said..

Lecum said..
Hi

It's clear the different opinions and experiences, and there are many factors that affect the facts:

Regarding which sport is easier to learn (windfoiling or wingfoiling), I wrote from a skilled windsurfer or kitesurfer starting point. The other day I met an skilled wingsurfer on the beach and told me for him had been more difficult to learn wingfoiling than windfoiling, and he practises both.

Regarding shlogging, the other day I saw three wingfoilers which couldn't come back to the beach and needed a boat, and there were at least 6-7 knots. Some couldn't even stand up and some others could stand up but not getting upwind. I guess due to different skills/equipment.

Regarding the early flight and wind range we have to compare with same wing/sail and foil size, but also same age!!. Another colleague in this forum told me he knows 18 years old guys, who could windfoil in 10-12 knots with 4,5 m2 sail, 85 litres boards and 1000 cm2 front wing. Obviously these young guys must weigh 60 Kgs and be able to pump like a beast, and this gives to his 4,5 m2 sail an enormous wind range. These are the guys we see at the wingfoiling marketing campaigns: young and fit guys who can pump a lot. Anyway, I would like to know how wings can have more wind range if they are less rigid than a sail. Many people say so, I'm not doubting it, I want to understand it.

Unfortunately most of the young guys are going to wingfoiling so the comparison with many of us, old traditional windsurfers is not fair. Thus, we worsen windfoiling's wind range and early flying. Why do the youngs go wing? One of the reasons is because marketing focus of the brands is in wingfoiling. IMO WWF could be shown as attractive as wing. The coolest thing is what young people prefer most. Older people are more practical. The marketing campaigns are designed with a purpose and get their goals for sure.

What it's quite interesting is that there are many participants of this windfoiling forum who see many advantages in wingfoiling over windfoiling. Why they don't practise it and leave windfoiling? Is it a matter of laziness to learn a new sport? weight? age? other?

Don't misunderstand me, I only want to have more information to decide if I have to go wingfoiling. I can't rent it at the surrounding beaches.

Pretty certain wingfoiling is easier to master than windfoiling

Most people find wings have bigger ranges than sails (but skilled windfoilers have wide wind ranges too, if their gear is set up right)

Wing foil speed is a function of what kind of wing they put on their board, just like windfoiling

Wing foiling is cooler than windfoiling forsure. Just like kitesurfing is cooler than windsurfing, except for wave sailors, they are the most cool.

Pretty certain wingfoiling has an advantage in very light air. My mate who is a few pounds over my weight and in his 50s, was foiling 50% of the time while I was foiling 5% of the time. Wind was probably 10-12 mph

He 90L, 6 or 7m wing, infinity 99
Me 143L, 5.7m sail, infinity 99

We don't windsurf because we think its easier. If we wanted something easy we would all be kitesurfing. We windsurf because we love windsurfing, same goes for me with windfoiling. I dig it heaps. Do I need something easier? no. Can i appreciate the things wingfoiling offers? forsure. Just like I appreciate the things kiting offers.

But as the title of this thread says, most people have ditched windfoiling for the wing and those coming from windsurfing are just going straight to the wing.

You should try wing foiling -- it is not all that easy. For some reason I have found wing foiling more difficult than wind foiling and I love a challenge.

You are right about the massive wind range of most of the wings on the market -- I did demo one new V2 wing recently that I thought had a major issue with backwinding, so buyer beware.

Here's a video showing 5 metre wings in action in very low wind conditions. I have successfully winged in low winds but perhaps not this low. One of the reasons I love wind foiling is due to the ability to get on foil with a relatively small sail in low winds and have fun. I didn't expect to wing in those low winds (I find it harder and more work to get on foil with a wing) -- big bonus.

Foils and just about any amount of wind go together sooo well. We're very fortunate to have the opportunity to wind foil or wing foil -- both make life a lot of fun.

Couple of observations about that video:
1) That music was absolutely annoying. Right up there with the guitar shredder solos on a video of someone unpacking groceries.
But more seriously, 2) I think those were some pretty small fliers. One guy(?) was dwarfed by what turned out to be a 5. I don't think the avg 80-95 kg rider here is going to be doing anything close to that.

I have seen a local wing a 5.5 in about 14 but the relative speed difference between his wing and my windfoil was sizeable. In conditions like that, my preference is to go full throttle on a windfoil. YMMV.

"Foils and just about any amount of wind go together sooo well. We're very fortunate to have the opportunity to wind foil or wing foil -- both make life a lot of fun." Yes, yes, yes. The thing I dislike about this thread is the artificial premise that it has to be one or the other. It's not about choosing teams, it's about seeing what might be fun for the conditions you enjoy and are at your disposal.

I'm starting winging specifically to reduce equipment space and weight. With my vehicle I'm limited to one hard board and a 3 sail quiver in my roof box. I frequently sail after work and its always a bit uncertain what conditions I'll find. My preference is blasting with a fin if possible but many days only foiling is fun.
But inflatable wing boards are available (I have a Hipe enroute) and the wings themselves take very little room. So that entire quiver can fit in the trunk. Plus the wing seems to have enough range to bridge onto my smaller wave board (I've sailed it when someone was on a 5m wing).

Also I'm in the Royal Canadian Navy and I like being able to bring equipment since we (used to at least) visit a bunch of fantastic spots for wind sports. Frequently Oahu which seems to be a hotbed of winging.

LeeD said..
True, man with most toys wins in the end, but........
Can you really carry windsurf, windfoil, and wingfoil gear with you?
Do you always know the windspeed and conditions to load the appropriate gear?
Most agree you still gotta practice a little or lose it.
A full size maxi van is barely enough solo.

Yeah it's hard enough for me to decide which sail and foil I want to rig. I don't need more choices regarding when to wing or sail.

Some guys are good at sharing the love between overlapping sports. Once I tend to get stoked on something I tend to focus only on doing that even when an alternative craft would likely be better eg those 4.0 days when I should be on the fin, not the foil.

To all the discussions about how fast one progresses you have to remember:
Talent stays talent, also in winging.
I know quite some guys that changed to kiting because they struggled in getting good wavesailors. And wavekiting looked so much "cooler and easier". Now they "wavekite" aka waterskiing on a wave. And they stand on the beach flabbergasted that their former wavekite idols are winging like they never did something else leaving their kite stuff unused. And they can't imagine starting winging ever.
Talent stays talent.
The same applies to some slalom sailors who never rode waves or practiced freestyle moves.
To be honest, slalom sailing doesn't need that much talent like wave sailing or freestyle.
Many slalom sailors never even started windfoiling let alone winging.
Talent stays talent.
My 2 cents.
I don't want to offend anybody with this post.

Didn't see any slalom sailors do well at the recent IQ foil championship, but some freestyle and RSX sailors sure did.

I tried winging today using my regular 120L freeride board I usually windfoil with. Didn't go well, the 1-2' shore break made even getting to my knees fairly impossible. I'm really hoping the wingfoil board has better stability: this one has thin rails, domed deck and most of the volume under the mast track.

Grantmac said..
Didn't see any slalom sailors do well at the recent IQ foil championship, but some freestyle and RSX sailors sure did.

I tried winging today using my regular 120L freeride board I usually windfoil with. Didn't go well, the 1-2' shore break made even getting to my knees fairly impossible. I'm really hoping the wingfoil board has better stability: this one has thin rails, domed deck and most of the volume under the mast track.

If you're talking about the International games on lake Garda there were 3 PWA Slalom guys in the top 10.
1st Sebiastian Koerdel
4th Alexander Cousin
7th Matteo Iachino

Grantmac said..
I'm starting winging specifically to reduce equipment space and weight. With my vehicle I'm limited to one hard board and a 3 sail quiver in my roof box. I frequently sail after work and its always a bit uncertain what conditions I'll find. My preference is blasting with a fin if possible but many days only foiling is fun.
But inflatable wing boards are available (I have a Hipe enroute) and the wings themselves take very little room. So that entire quiver can fit in the trunk. Plus the wing seems to have enough range to bridge onto my smaller wave board (I've sailed it when someone was on a 5m wing).

Also I'm in the Royal Canadian Navy and I like being able to bring equipment since we (used to at least) visit a bunch of fantastic spots for wind sports. Frequently Oahu which seems to be a hotbed of winging.

Did you bu the board from Europe? How long does it take to ship/get through customs. And was shipping reasonable?

It's a Gong inflatable and shipping was quite expensive, I don't know about the tax bill yet.

Grantmac said..
It's a Gong inflatable and shipping was quite expensive, I don't know about the tax bill yet.

Unless Gong charged GST at point of sale, it is unlikely you will face additional tax when it arrives. I've had a few expensive items delivered from OS, just comes no gst.