colas said..

Johndesu said..
Yes Colas i agree with you and i value your feedback, I want to ask you what do you think the 67L Walden might do in regards to sitting in the water? / at what level? / just under the surface or a bit on top?:-) I think we are very similar (age,ability thinking etc.) but you are a lot bigger than me:-)

It should float just at the surface or a tad below without a wetsuit: you need to keep the nose above the water for balance on these short boards, so it reduces a bit the useful volume. Adding a full deck pad may add a bit more volume.

It will be under the surface with a winter wetsuit.

Great that sounds about perfect I think, and I always wear a steamer (2x2mm for summer & 3x2mm for winter:-)
Thanks I will report back / post when I know more etc.:-)

Kami said..
Centre of buoyancy settled far on the nose makes the paddling safe but the board is " pushing water" , sorry Colas to say that it is like your board that you are paddling forcefully to enter the wave.

Actually, this is more due to the combo of a wide nose and front rocker. And I like the feeling, as you can overcome this water bump building under the nose with a hard paddle stroke and body movement, and get the rush of a good shortboard "pop pup" without fearing pearling.

Long pulled in noses cut through water better, but then you must be quite cautious when paddling on the take off, and maintaining the nose close to the water, but above, to have an efficient takeoff is harder, you need to move more on the board. So I like water-pushing noses on hollow waves, and long thin ones on fat waves.

An example on why it is important to keep the front foot parallel to the stringer can be seen in this video at 0:28

See how the board is rolling to the side, even catching a rail, as his weight moves between heel and toes on the front foot, plus it keeps his shoulders not facing frontwards, making the paddling movement quite disruptive of the lateral balance.

With a fencing stance rather than this surf stance, you can apply much more paddling power.

ghost4man said..
Where is the actual video. That one only goes 44 seconds.

It is in their paying "pro" section: www.supboardermag.com/pro/

I am not a subscriber, I do not know if the subscription is worth it (their freely available technical articles are quite average), and since the site is sponsored by SUP brands, I would be quite wary of their tests.

I like their videos for their British accent however :-)

colas said..
The back foot will naturally position itself symmetrically wrt the stringer, so you actually only have to focus on the front foot.

Well, not quite. I found out that if the front foot position is the key to the balance, the back foot position is also critical, but more for your stamina.

Since I begin to mainly use low volume (105 litres for my 100kg), narrowish (less than 30"), longer (more than 7'8") and light (4.8kg bare) boards, I kept having some micro-tears in my rear calf that took weeks to heal. This didn't happen before on my 115+ liters, 29"+, 6.5kg+ boards.

I finally built myself a trainer device - that I will detail in the next post - to see what was going on. By standing 2mn on it, I could distinctly feel heat building up in some points in my calf depending on the position of the back foot:
- too far aft and the back of the calf was hurting
- toes too open ("toe out" and the inside of my calf was hurting

I could thus determine that my rear foot should also be in a critical position:
- close to the stringer. Ideally both heels at the same distance from the stringer
- the toes of the rear foot not farther back than the front foot heel
- parallel to the stringer (best, if you can keep the balance) up to 30 degrees angle max

Basically it means my feet were in a kind of "sweet rectangle" (in blue) of 32x48cm (12.5" x 19", for my 10" long feet) on the board by looking at where I was on the pad ridges :

colas said..
And here is my balance simulator trainer:
- a 32x50cm wood board, with some pad spare pieces on top
- a stiff EVA foam yoga brick (less than $10) , rounded with a knife then sanded in a half-cylinder, with some slight rocker added longitudinally
things like www.amazon.com/REEHUT-Density-Support-Strength-Flexibility/dp/B01MDMDDFH/ref=sr_1_5?
- glued with two-sided tape to a raiser board (my brick was 3" high, no need with a 4" high brick) and the board
- some bits of pad under the corners as anti-skid bumpers when you fail and hit the floor with the sides

The result is something that reproduce surprisingly well the feeling of paddling a a low volume, narrow-ish, not too short SUP. I experimented with various foam shapes, balloons, and this was the best I found.

Grab a paddle, and watch a SUP or surf youtube clip, the goal is to keep your balance and not have hot spots in your calves at the end of the clip. Experiment with feet and body position (how much to bend the knees, movements to retreive balance), etc...

colas said..
And here is my balance simulator trainer:
- a 32x50cm wood board, with some pad spare pieces on top
- a stiff EVA foam yoga brick (less than $10) , rounded with a knife then sanded in a half-cylinder, with some slight rocker added longitudinally
things like www.amazon.com/REEHUT-Density-Support-Strength-Flexibility/dp/B01MDMDDFH/ref=sr_1_5?
- glued with two-sided tape to a raiser board (my brick was 3" high, no need with a 4" high brick) and the board
- some bits of pad under the corners as anti-skid bumpers when you fail and hit the floor with the sides

The result is something that reproduce surprisingly well the feeling of paddling a a low volume, narrow-ish, not too short SUP. I experimented with various foam shapes, balloons, and this was the best I found.

Grab a paddle, and watch a SUP or surf youtube clip, the goal is to keep your balance and not have hot spots in your calves at the end of the clip. Experiment with feet and body position (how much to bend the knees, movements to retreive balance), etc...

Colas that is fantastic!

Okay just to add my own experience.

I now have 3 boards having recently purchased the JL Destroyer 7"7.

I also have a pair of 7"2s in the form a Deep Minion and Starby Hypernut.

These are all around 95-100 litres so at the bottom end of volume.

What I have discovered along the way is that a specific technique is required to balance on smaller boards which I picked up through this thread.

By positioning ones feet in a specific manner - namely a narrower stance - has really benefited my SUP experience.

This stance is something that the individual must cultivate. It requires practice and patience and will vary from board to board.

My Deep board is the most difficult to use as the sweet spot is so small. This means then that the split stance adopted by Colas in the photo is not as pronounced.

In theory if I were to promote this stance it would mean a larger distance between the front and back foot as it is very easy for the Minion to sink at the rear and so this needs to be compensated for with adjustment facilitated by the front foot.

I do believe that the title of the thread would be better renamed as lateral AND longitudinal balance because board balance embraces equal portions of these principles.

I have found really good success by using a Swiss ball which is brutal on your balance. There is no hiding from this exercise. Simply standing up on the ball is a challenge. Progressing onto squats is an even bigger challenge which becomes self evident when your legs start to shake and the death wobbles emerge.

I find this practice becomes even harder when you get into a semi squat position which places even further pressure on your legs.

When you consider how much balance is required in routine paddling waiting for a wave it is amazing that these points aren't emphasised more often. Generally speaking if you went out for surf session I would argue that 95% of your time on the water would be taken up by the wave preparation phase.

Ozzie

Colas,

These BOSU BALLS are very good for balancing. They can be used standing on top of the ball as depicted in the photo where
they feel very much like jelly.Alternatively they are also equally effective when flipped over.If it is your first time to use, it is quite challenging to stay on and balance comfortably.


Obviously this is a quick alternative to what Colas has done and can be found in any gym.

Cheers.

Ozzie

ghost4man said..

This stance is something that the individual must cultivate. It requires practice and patience and will vary from board to board.

+1

Actually, all this quest started also because I tried again a board I was at ease on, but I hadn't used for a while, and although small, that was bigger than my current boards (7'3" x 28" x 110l) and had a wider nose than my current Alley (7'8" x 27"3/4 x 105l). I could not stand on it ! I tried for nearly one hour falling as soon as I climbed on it !!!

So I tried to understand what was really involved in balancing on specific boards, since it could be forgotten so quickly.

In my case it was because I am now using boards with some width in the tail, and the old board had a very narrow tail, and it seems the 2 kinds of balance are very different, and most importantly, they make you "unlearn" each over!

colas said..
Ah, and it works also for kneeling. If, like me, you first kneel on the board before standing up, taking care that your knees are close to the stringer helps a lot when standing up and avoids the dreaded fall-as-soon-as-you-get-up symptom.

The benefit of the Swiss Ball comes into play here. One of my colleagues wanted to borrow my board just recently to see what it was like.

He typically uses his 9'6 which is also an inflatable.

When he got on my board he struggled to maintain his balance in the knee position which is quite often where the problems
start.

The Swiss Ball is great for using one knee and the other foot for balancing. These are actually very challenging exercises
when not practiced.

But what I have found is when I have done these exercises as part of my gym workout and then gone out for a surf the
transition to SUP balance seems to be easier to do.

Its interesting you should mention unlearning as these skills appear to go very easy if not practiced regularly which I thought would
be counterintuitive.

Okay so this is what I've been doing for the last 6 months in the gym. I've been trying to incorporate balance routines as a way of helping what happens when I get out on my board

I've found this to be extremely helpful to the extent that there have been times when I haven't been able to get out on my board but the balance is not only there but better.

Now I'm not saying that what you do here is transferable out on the water. However this is working in a big way for me.

I'm wearing a 10kg weighted vest and prior to doing this I was doing 180kg leg presses which leaves your leg feeling like jelly and makes the balancing that much harder.

I also use a bosu ball which I'll show in another video which helps even more and is probably very similar to what Colas made as part of his routine.

colas said..

ghost4man said..
I also use a bosu ball which I'll show in another video which helps even more and is probably very similar to what Colas made as part of his routine.

Yes, with the bosu inverted (flat side up)

That is correct. For those that have not tried you will be amazed at how much in the way of death wobbles you get when performing this exercise.

I focus quite a bit on the kneel stage with the Swiss ball particularly with one knee up as it mimics paddling whilst on your knees.

Once you spend time doing these routines in the gym transitioning to the water becomes quite interesting in that you do feel a lot of the time it is easier to balance.

Remember these routines on the Swiss ball promote a mindset of staying on the ball at all times. You can't just fall off like you would in the water because it can end up being painful so I feel that this kinda "forces" you to balance properly.

supsean said..

ghost4man said..
Okay so this is what I've been doing for the last 6 months in the gym. I've been trying to incorporate balance routines as a way of helping what happens when I get out on my board

I've found this to be extremely helpful to the extent that there have been times when I haven't been able to get out on my board but the balance is not only there but better.

Now I'm not saying that what you do here is transferable out on the water. However this is working in a big way for me.

I'm wearing a 10kg weighted vest and prior to doing this I was doing 180kg leg presses which leaves your leg feeling like jelly and makes the balancing that much harder.

I also use a bosu ball which I'll show in another video which helps even more and is probably very similar to what Colas made as part of his routine.

I recently started doing swiss ball and have been doing Bosu ball for a while. I haven't tried standing from kneeling position, as I am still using something to brace myself while I am getting onto the ball. But it definitely helps!!

Mate good job.

The same principles apply.

When you go out on your board it's likely you will get on both knees and use both hands to balance yourself.

You will most definitely do the same when standing up from the kneeling position. This involves have the knees and hands as contact points for stability.

If you watch my head placement I'm really focusing on keeping that still whilst the rest of my body moves under me which is different to what you do with the kayak stability move which I'm thinking more and more to be effective. In other words I'm going to start practising the dinking of the head which I think you do once you've lost your equilibrium.

Seajuice said..
I was out today on my 6ft 8" foil board. Fell in heaps! Tried lots of stances but found the toes of my front foot over the stringer & back foot beside the stringer to be the best balance for me. Probably because I am more used to this stance.
But once I shifted to surf stance to catch a wave I would fall off prematurely & obviously missed the wave.
The water surface wasn't affected by wind but was affected by moving water coming out of a lake entrance and also a side swell like the wake of a small boat going past. I thought it would be quite easy to balance but was I wrong!
I found myself tipping to one side & then on trying to correct it the board stayed at that angle for a few seconds before either falling off or rolling back to the other side & staying there for a few seconds also.
And then if I didn't tip sideways I would sometimes bury the boards nose under water or bury the tail underwater.
Then my mind would get lazy & say just fall off. Which I did.
I am absolutely exhausted. Like doing a thousand push ups getting back on the board! Haaa!
I am starting to think that a previous session 2 days before in different conditions with strong side wind chop & swell as well as chop bouncing back in the opposite direction has affected my muscle memory to a point of failing stability today. Or maybe fatigue as well.
But in saying this. It is a new smaller board that I may have to get used to.

Hey Seajuice,
Thanks you just made me feel a whole lot better,going from a a Naish mana 10',which is impossible to fall off,to my new 7'4" hover. I thought I was the only kook that swims more then paddles,not say your kook,but I definitely look like one.Im going thru the same problems,just like learning to sup all over again.Sore feet,aching calves painful butt muscles
Im at this stage using as a kwad,trying to get use to it,I'm told they get a lot more stable when the foil is on.
Im finding that it's not the standing on the low volume short boards it's the getting to the standing position.I think your feet go to the most comfortable position but I will try the feet position .So getting to the standing position,I either face plant into the nose or slip of the back,in saying that,I've only been out twice on it.I can get to my feet but it's not pretty.

So mate if you have any hints on getting to your feet I'm all ears.

Cheers.

Fitzsup said..

Seajuice said..
I was out today on my 6ft 8" foil board. Fell in heaps! Tried lots of stances but found the toes of my front foot over the stringer & back foot beside the stringer to be the best balance for me. Probably because I am more used to this stance.
But once I shifted to surf stance to catch a wave I would fall off prematurely & obviously missed the wave.
The water surface wasn't affected by wind but was affected by moving water coming out of a lake entrance and also a side swell like the wake of a small boat going past. I thought it would be quite easy to balance but was I wrong!
I found myself tipping to one side & then on trying to correct it the board stayed at that angle for a few seconds before either falling off or rolling back to the other side & staying there for a few seconds also.
And then if I didn't tip sideways I would sometimes bury the boards nose under water or bury the tail underwater.
Then my mind would get lazy & say just fall off. Which I did.
I am absolutely exhausted. Like doing a thousand push ups getting back on the board! Haaa!
I am starting to think that a previous session 2 days before in different conditions with strong side wind chop & swell as well as chop bouncing back in the opposite direction has affected my muscle memory to a point of failing stability today. Or maybe fatigue as well.
But in saying this. It is a new smaller board that I may have to get used to.

Hey Seajuice,
Thanks you just made me feel a whole lot better,going from a a Naish mana 10',which is impossible to fall off,to my new 7'4" hover. I thought I was the only kook that swims more then paddles,not say your kook,but I definitely look like one.Im going thru the same problems,just like learning to sup all over again.Sore feet,aching calves painful butt muscles
Im at this stage using as a kwad,trying to get use to it,I'm told they get a lot more stable when the foil is on.
Im finding that it's not the standing on the low volume short boards it's the getting to the standing position.I think your feet go to the most comfortable position but I will try the feet position .So getting to the standing position,I either face plant into the nose or slip of the back,in saying that,I've only been out twice on it.I can get to my feet but it's not pretty.

So mate if you have any hints on getting to your feet I'm all ears.

Cheers.

Hi mate,

I would some extras on top of what Cola has said.

You have to appreciate that you have made a massive leap in board sizes which would test anyone quite frankly.

I think you have to find the sweet spot on your board in terms of feet position. My Deep Minion has a very small one. Just a little bit of front foot advancement can bring the nose into the water which can tip you forward.

To offset that I maintain a bent knee profile which invokes them quads and calves. So be prepared for some muscle soreness as you adjust.

I find bringing my knees together creates for greater stability as it promotes an almost skiers stance where you simply move the knees from one side to the other in small movements.

Head movement is another biggie.

So when Colas says look far forward what I do is look at the line of the horizon. You now have established reference point which doesn't move. If you look down at your feet or water all you see is constant movement which I find promotes imbalance.

Work on your confidence. There is nothing worse than to go from a completely stable board where you feel like you could wear a suit and mevee fall off than to go to a much smaller board and struggle to get off your knees.

Be prepared to face plant the water alot.

Learn to like it.

Fitzsup said..

ghost4man said..

Fitzsup said..

Seajuice said..
I was out today on my 6ft 8" foil board. Fell in heaps! Tried lots of stances but found the toes of my front foot over the stringer & back foot beside the stringer to be the best balance for me. Probably because I am more used to this stance.
But once I shifted to surf stance to catch a wave I would fall off prematurely & obviously missed the wave.
The water surface wasn't affected by wind but was affected by moving water coming out of a lake entrance and also a side swell like the wake of a small boat going past. I thought it would be quite easy to balance but was I wrong!
I found myself tipping to one side & then on trying to correct it the board stayed at that angle for a few seconds before either falling off or rolling back to the other side & staying there for a few seconds also.
And then if I didn't tip sideways I would sometimes bury the boards nose under water or bury the tail underwater.
Then my mind would get lazy & say just fall off. Which I did.
I am absolutely exhausted. Like doing a thousand push ups getting back on the board! Haaa!
I am starting to think that a previous session 2 days before in different conditions with strong side wind chop & swell as well as chop bouncing back in the opposite direction has affected my muscle memory to a point of failing stability today. Or maybe fatigue as well.
But in saying this. It is a new smaller board that I may have to get used to.

Hey Seajuice,
Thanks you just made me feel a whole lot better,going from a a Naish mana 10',which is impossible to fall off,to my new 7'4" hover. I thought I was the only kook that swims more then paddles,not say your kook,but I definitely look like one.Im going thru the same problems,just like learning to sup all over again.Sore feet,aching calves painful butt muscles
Im at this stage using as a kwad,trying to get use to it,I'm told they get a lot more stable when the foil is on.
Im finding that it's not the standing on the low volume short boards it's the getting to the standing position.I think your feet go to the most comfortable position but I will try the feet position .So getting to the standing position,I either face plant into the nose or slip of the back,in saying that,I've only been out twice on it.I can get to my feet but it's not pretty.

So mate if you have any hints on getting to your feet I'm all ears.

Cheers.

Hi mate,

I would some extras on top of what Cola has said.

You have to appreciate that you have made a massive leap in board sizes which would test anyone quite frankly.

I think you have to find the sweet spot on your board in terms of feet position. My Deep Minion has a very small one. Just a little bit of front foot advancement can bring the nose into the water which can tip you forward.

To offset that I maintain a bent knee profile which invokes them quads and calves. So be prepared for some muscle soreness as you adjust.

I find bringing my knees together creates for greater stability as it promotes an almost skiers stance where you simply move the knees from one side to the other in small movements.

Head movement is another biggie.

So when Colas says look far forward what I do is look at the line of the horizon. You now have established reference point which doesn't move. If you look down at your feet or water all you see is constant movement which I find promotes imbalance.

Work on your confidence. There is nothing worse than to go from a completely stable board where you feel like you could wear a suit and mevee fall off than to go to a much smaller board and struggle to get off your knees.

Be prepared to face plant the water alot.

Learn to like it.

thanks for tips guys,
Went out this morning,really windy,tried all the tips felt unnatural to start with sorta kinda got it together,ain't pretty.Yeah ghostman still face planting,I'm fairly ugly already,just more worried about damaging the board.Ill keep trying as Peter Brock said "bite of more than you can chew then chew like hell"

Fitzsup said..

Seajuice said..
I was out today on my 6ft 8" foil board. Fell in heaps! Tried lots of stances but found the toes of my front foot over the stringer & back foot beside the stringer to be the best balance for me. Probably because I am more used to this stance.
But once I shifted to surf stance to catch a wave I would fall off prematurely & obviously missed the wave.
The water surface wasn't affected by wind but was affected by moving water coming out of a lake entrance and also a side swell like the wake of a small boat going past. I thought it would be quite easy to balance but was I wrong!
I found myself tipping to one side & then on trying to correct it the board stayed at that angle for a few seconds before either falling off or rolling back to the other side & staying there for a few seconds also.
And then if I didn't tip sideways I would sometimes bury the boards nose under water or bury the tail underwater.
Then my mind would get lazy & say just fall off. Which I did.
I am absolutely exhausted. Like doing a thousand push ups getting back on the board! Haaa!
I am starting to think that a previous session 2 days before in different conditions with strong side wind chop & swell as well as chop bouncing back in the opposite direction has affected my muscle memory to a point of failing stability today. Or maybe fatigue as well.
But in saying this. It is a new smaller board that I may have to get used to.

Hey Seajuice,
Thanks you just made me feel a whole lot better,going from a a Naish mana 10',which is impossible to fall off,to my new 7'4" hover. I thought I was the only kook that swims more then paddles,not say your kook,but I definitely look like one.Im going thru the same problems,just like learning to sup all over again.Sore feet,aching calves painful butt muscles
Im at this stage using as a kwad,trying to get use to it,I'm told they get a lot more stable when the foil is on.
Im finding that it's not the standing on the low volume short boards it's the getting to the standing position.I think your feet go to the most comfortable position but I will try the feet position .So getting to the standing position,I either face plant into the nose or slip of the back,in saying that,I've only been out twice on it.I can get to my feet but it's not pretty.

So mate if you have any hints on getting to your feet I'm all ears.

Cheers.

helped me a lot. Took a few sessions though and one of them in the flat water.