Hi all, I'm not a member of AKSA or WAKSA as a kiting instructor in WA. There is not really a main reason for or against that, let's just say I don't feel it's necessary. The school I work for has all the permits and insurance, and that's all the insurance I need. As far as insurance when I'm kiting by myself, any private insurer can provide that coverage.

That being said, I will always talk to my students about WAKSA in the first few minutes of their first lesson. I think it's important for them to know that there is a governing body out there looking out for kiters. Although I have to admit I am disappointed to see the location guide on the Website is still not operational, and I believe it hasn't been for the last few months, right when it was the most needed. I'm sure there is a valid explanation for this, must be a technical problem.
Nonetheless, reading the About section of WASKA's website I find: “Our major role is to promote safe kiting and to defend your right to kite everywhere along the coast where it can be considered appropriate”. This is exactly what the location guide does (and it does it very well) and I believe is the number one reason/incentive for new kiters/students to visit the Website for the first time, and this exactly the main reason I introduce WAKSA to all my students.

Regarding the whole instructor certification chapter, I strongly agree with vwpete's comments: until we have our own training and certification program, we have to support what's already there. That being said, I don't believe 5 days instructor certification programs are sufficient in ensuring quality instruction and instructor development. For example in France (no I'm not from France), it takes a whole year to become a certified kitesurfing instructor and three years of study and exams to become a ski instructor. Instructors in France make a true career out of instructing, and a lot of people want to join in, hence why they have to “filter” the potential candidates to limit the numbers by coming up with extensive training programs. Same goes with their kitesurfing associations and governing bodies in France, they deal with a very large number of kitesurfers, schools, instructors, etc. They have to be much organised and very supportive to be taken seriously and get support from their members…otherwise they just get blamed to the point of disappearing.

Also, the biggest incentive we found for snowboard instructors in Canada (yep, that's where I'm from) to become members of our national association, is to offer pro-deals to all members. This means that by paying the yearly membership fees you have the privileged access to big discounts from various snowboard manufacturers. I believe over time this could be done with AKSA and various kitesurfing manufacturers and/or shops and this will boost the number of members.

They are probably a number of lessons to be learned from what's going on overseas, especially from countries dealing with far larger numbers of kitesurfers than Australia, and I think that's the main message Livit is trying to bring across in this forum. Not that I endorse his approach in this topic, I just want to point out he is a certified instructor working legally in a school that has all permits and insurance needed to be fully legitimate. I also want to point out he is the most dedicated instructor and kitesurfer I have seen out there on our local beaches. He's always the first one to help out other random kitesurfers after hours and also on his days off (not getting paid). He has also helped in rescuing a number of kitesurfers who have gotten in trouble, most of the times sacrificing his only opportunity to go kiting on that day. This is the kind of concrete, day-to-day commitment that we need to see more often from other instructors and experienced kitesurfers in order to prevent accidents and educate people better.

Amen

I have often had to help newbies who have finished a course, paid a fortune and turned up on the beach with no friggin idea....and then spend 30 mins with them teaching alas for free, they get a lot more confidence and are usually very thankful. The problem i see with the courses is too much explaining and not enough practice. It is all about maximising profit. Lessons should ONLY be one on one, should be at least 6 hours and cost no more than $600..... Then the student will have had at least 5 hours with the kite in the water and should be proficient. Then everyone is happy.

School Competition is good, it brings the price down or should. Perhaps i should start a school and make sure beginners know how to kite efficiently. $100 per hour or less if anyone wants to compete. If i do 3 lessons a week i will rake in $1800, i will register the beginners with WAKSA and they can send them info about the benefits of joining.

vwpete said...

Your off topic and way off the mark, what's wrong with profit, your shop/schools are for profit? and bksa is non-profit anyway. So what do you recommend right now? instructors have no accreditation? you think that would be better? Or you mean accreditation by you cos you know best.

The classic here is your website promotes IKO saying you use iko instructors and your kite centers are IKO accredited, and you follow IKO training methods, even better you're running an IKO instructor training course in September!

http://www.kitepower.com.au/kitesurfing-lessons.html

Anyways, Yes I have seen bad instruction as well, in this country and others it happens. With IKO the student is sent an email to ask for feedback, did they use helmets, life vests etc how was your lesson, as for not using trainer kites that's against IKO standards and by the way DM's school does not use them.

You want standards IKO and BKSA has them in spades (as you know), do some instructors not follow the teaching method, sure it happens, would I then say let's do away with all of it and have nothing (that's the current option) no I would not and nor should you (and nor does your website).

When/if Australia gets its own teaching accreditation we can have a different conversation.

vwpete
I'm expressing my opinion, thats all. In my business I support IKO standards, since there is nothing better. IKO has failed repeatedly to properly enforce standards, thats why I'm cynical about their standards.
When I see schools putting greed well in front of profit thats the problem I've written about, yet by ticking some boxes they still get the IKO stamp of approval.

I'm not against fair profit, just against greed where standards are dropped in the name of screwing massive $$$ from unwitting people. We have a local situation where a school packs 3 people in a toy jetboat, charges them all $300 each and they then share the 3 hours, so they get 1 hr each or 1.5hrs if there is 2 people. IKO accredited!
People bail after 1 or 2 lessons but have possibly spent up to $600 for 2 hrs of boat based instruction, they cannot even walk up a beach with their kite, most have only rigged a kite once or watched a kite get rigged.

I will do more to make sure that students know about AKSA/NSWKBA, we are working on a brochure for shops right now.

"FYI, IKO teaches this method."

Must be a recent thing maybe with a recent Hawaiian association (not sure if the sale of IKO went through).. just 4-5 years behind, just like their insistence on the use of leashes being ok for so many years lol. Good for them!


IMO they have no place in Australian or NZ kiting for that matter. The fact they got away with sending various clueless people to other countries without a valid work visa to infect the world was a great shame.

IKO still run instructor courses for people that cannot kitesurf yet - the perfect business model to get people on your side that don't know any better lol. A friend naively did one, he's a good guy but didn't know **** !!!

They also advertise courses in one country aimed at those in another - probably due to pissing people off and having to deal with the fact people don't like others without work visas spreading **** any more.

Countries can deal effectively with local conditions and cultures which someone like IKO cannot do.

I do not agree with enforcement of any kind though - ie suggestions of compulsory registration and the likes - i'd give up kiting before having to deal with any of that sh1t - it's the polar opposite of one of the reasons I got into kiting.

I'm a member of WAKSA and have completed one season.
Arrived in WA from the East as a non kiter, at the end of summer, had 3 lessons as recommended.
Lessons were pretty average and winter so cruel to a learner gusty N'Westerlies, smashed me so many times.
Didn't know what WAKSA would give me above the insurance but the help, advice and friends I've made (I guess) from wearing a coloured triangle over the last year has been worth every cent.
Thanks WAKSA I promote it and appreciate what gets done by a small team of volunteer's.

iandvnt said...

"FYI, IKO teaches this method."

Must be a recent thing maybe with a recent Hawaiian association (not sure if the sale of IKO went through).. just 4-5 years behind, just like their insistence on the use of leashes being ok for so many years lol. Good for them!

So your making comments on information that is out-dated, They did not say you must have a leash, they allowed but discouraged it. Now it's not allowed to teach with a leash

iandvnt said...
IMO they have no place in Australian or NZ kiting for that matter. The fact they got away with sending various clueless people to other countries without a valid work visa to infect the world was a great shame.

Sending people, they don't send anyone, and visa stuff is controlled by each individual country. So again as Australia does not have any teaching or instructor training, you think it would be best to have none?

iandvnt said...
IKO still run instructor courses for people that cannot kitesurf yet - the perfect business model to get people on your side that don't know any better lol. A friend naively did one, he's a good guy but didn't know **** !!!

Rubbish! You must know and deminstraight at least a controlled jump with landing and toe side riding as well as have a boat licence and 1st aid cert.

iandvnt said...
They also advertise courses in one country aimed at those in another - probably due to pissing people off and having to deal with the fact people don't like others without work visas spreading **** any more.

Really please provide examples

iandvnt said...
Countries can deal effectively with local conditions and cultures which someone like IKO cannot do.

Local conditions? what like wind and sea and sand, and don't start me on culture.

iandvnt said...
I do not agree with enforcement of any kind though - ie suggestions of compulsory registration and the likes - i'd give up kiting before having to deal with any of that sh1t - it's the polar opposite of one of the reasons I got into kiting.

Look its real simple Australia does not have any accreditation for teaching or instructor training, you might want to b*tch about the ones that do exist (some may be valid), but really you just sound like the people bagging ASKSA and WAKSA. Till you manage to create somink better, Stop whingeing and whining and get behind what we do have in the industry.

As for all this IKO and BKSA bashing, why do you bother I just checked WAKSA's kitesurf school list of the 8 schools listed one is an accredited IKO school and one other BKSA. the other 6 have nothing!! So it looks like you have your wish most schools in WA have no accreditation at all, so you don't have to worry about them not teaching to an accredited peer reviewed standard, cos they don't have one! yippee

oh... man ......., dude ........, man ...., oh dude

>>>>JUDDY

Sorry for the late reply, I've been kitesurfing all day.....

To answer your questions:

1/ Why do I expect WAKSA to introduce themselves to me? Well, maybe I wasn't clear, I meant "to us instructors".... I thought you would guess I was a certified instructor working legally for an official school.

To me, I believe that WAKSA should come to the schools and have a chat at the beginning of each season with the new instructors to increase the awareness of local issues. Isn't it simple? You can disagree and say it should work the other way around but would it really happen? Does it actually happen? How many instructors have come to you this season to ask about the way WAKSA works?
Most of the local schools are operating with at least 5 instructors. I reckon most of them are from overseas and are not going to stay after the season. This means the information's has to be given over and over again.
On your website you mention 7 schools operating about Perth metro. This is maybe 30 instructors and I'm not talking about the other schools that are not mentioned there. It's called time management. Better going to them once rather than they come individually and have you repeating the same stuff to all of them (but it's not going to happen anyway).Your choice…..

2/ About my contribution to the local scene? As I'm not supporting WAKSA, all I can do as an individual is to keep an eye on people every now and then. Probably not much as I expect you to say, but I believe that trying to educate people rather than complaining or wHinging about people behaviour at our local is a way better manner to prevent from accidents to happen.

3/ Do I have a relevant permission and do I do it legally? Yes I do, but maybe this a bit of a hot topic because as far as I know even some of the schools mentioned on WAKSA official website don't actually own a permit and you seem to be supporting them so I don't really understand the point of this question?????
Furthermore, about the question:” are you just another travelling Euro instructor here on a holiday?”. I think you should handle this with kid gloves before addressing this because once again, most of your local schools are employing these “travelling Euro instructors”

4/ Signage? I apologize; I didn't know you were working very hard on this. How could I know anyway??? After reading thoroughly the minutes from 2009/2010/2011 AGM, all I could find was a few reports about the events WAKSA organised in WA and the “hot spot” about Mullaloo access.
If only there would be anything mentioning worthy actions, I think I would jump onboard or at least support it.
WA is not small, I don't think WAKSA can manage to deal individually with all the concerned councils. Back home we've got kind of local associations that deal locally with the authorities. I could develop on this subject but I don't think it interests you anyway. I may be wrong but I don't think that 100% of the councils would refuse to put up signs if it is done in the interest of all.

5/ The only time I hear from WAKSA is when there is an event…. I admit I exaggerated this statement.

Once again this is my opinion, it's my right not to support WAKSA. Here I explain why I don't……

Haha gruezi, that is hilarious!
I don't know how serious you are being, but that is the story of many parts of our economy.

Young euros (and hopefully other continents ) come and work here in every industry and it is good for us and them in my view.

Good one !

Dave

The leash issue simply showed early on how incredibly out of touch IKO were, the kiteleash training - how behind.

If you are working on behalf of IKO in another country (for example teaching instructors) you must have a valid work visa for the country, I know for a fact this has not been the case in the past. You just can't waltz into a country on behalf of a Dominican Republic based company and expect to be able to work without a visa. If they applied anyway they would be like who the hell are the IKO and get a chance to talk to kiting citizens about their validity and reputation.

Those of us that have put in the hard yards know you need a minimum amount of water time to responsibly be able to teach - and that is measured by years not by learning a controlled jump with landing and toe side riding (shadowing is simply not enough). It's another joke based on more revenue, I have seen soooo many examples of absolutely clueless instructors that did IKO training -the reason - they never put in the hard yards ie. years of experience. More than once I have come across those that laugh about sending in fake lesson reports to get their full IKO instructor qualification - it's near impossible to control country to country.

The IKO sanctioned courses that teach you to be a kitesurf instructor from not being able to kitesurf whatsoever sure do exist I am surprised you do not know - contact IKO directly - they will give you information - demonstrating to ride toeside and controlled jump with landing are part of it - like i said they deliberately target those that know no better.


Really please provide examples of IKO course targeting overseas riders - Back of Kiteworld magazine.

Local conditions are more important than just wind sea and sand. Some examples of localized weather events are frontal vs tradewinds - local sudden wind direction changes effected by local conditions and with local warning signs, local ripcurrents including estuary mouth riding, local signs that the wind is going to shut down, local wave conditions, respecting / staying safe from local wildlife, temperature effects, local effects of cold water and the risks associated, local tide effects on safety (aint no real tide in the DR lol) as you mention it the beach soft/ hard packed sand rock corral buildings sold objects on teh beach etc, local warnings of imminent and dangerous wind strength increases. Local rules on the water are different in different places and can be effected by waves, state, bylaws and simply locally kiter policed /generally accepted practices.

I don't have a problem considering culture. One example is teaching riders from overseas what is acceptable practice in your country. It may be as simple as explaining that everything is not necessarily based on law rules and regulations, that in fact local riders accepted practice and mutual respect is to not ride at crowded beaches or in maybe the freestyle crews slick spot until you are at a certain level. Simple and obvious to us but maybe not to who you are teaching.

ASKSA and WAKSA - I never bashed them, I simply don't support state controlled regulation of any kind. Mind you if they published a list of my fave spot Xs I am not sure that would last.

sorse said...


I would like to see our Instructors come together under a united banner, how about it, Hands Up??
Any instructors in Australia would like to talk about forming our own group?

If you are interested and have any idea's please PM me..

Cheers Dave

Sounds like a good idea.