As the size sail and board a rider can use is largely dictated by weight (I acknowledge that technique is very important too), why are windsurfing races such as the LOC divided into age divisions rather than weight divisions?
Weight divisions within each age group would require reshuffling of the prize pool but would make the event more even....

Hmmmmm... yes and no.

Big heavy guys with weight jackets are faster because they can hold a bigger sail ...... once you are planing the weight difference is different (if that makes sense)
Hmmm how to explain it - light weight is more important at slower barely planing speeds?

EG: I am 100kg ish. When wavesailing I use a bigger sail than everyone else.... sometimes.
If they are on 5.7 I'm on 6.2, If they are all on 5.3 I will go 5.7 ish.

BUT by the time most ppl are on 4.7 I am also on 4.7. That is because by then it is so windy it doesn't matter. When they're all on 4.2, I am also.

So really you are both right - depends on conditions

AUS4 said...

JayBee said...

If you allow different sail sizes that negates the weight difference.
If you made all sailors use the same sail soze then you could create weight divisions.

You cannot effectively do both.

dito

No that's incorrect. Allowing different sail sizes doesn't negate the weight difference. Heavier sailors are faster. A weight advantage is a real advantage.
Windxtasy is right. If you want a fair competition you have to allow for that somehow.

NotWal said...

AUS4 said...

JayBee said...

If you allow different sail sizes that negates the weight difference.
If you made all sailors use the same sail soze then you could create weight divisions.

You cannot effectively do both.

dito

No that's incorrect. Allowing different sail sizes doesn't negate the weight difference. Heavier sailors are faster. A weight advantage is a real advantage.
Windxtasy is right. If you want a fair competition you have to allow for that somehow.

it doesn't work that way,

say weveryone is on 8.5m sails and 66cm boards.

the whole fleet is powered up and blasting along. then the wind shifts 5 deg and drops 5 knots.

bye bye all the heavyweights! they either pump or drop off the plane. meanwhile the light people on the same size gear keep planning and put on 200m.

with unlimited gear, the heavy guys are running 10m sails and keep planning.

also weight divs usually apply to events where you need to be able to sail upwind. a heavy guy needs a bigger sail to compete upwind.

On flat water, especially on a square course, heavier is definitely faster, but in the ocean, as in The LOC, it's 99% skill.

Of couse you have to choose the right gear though...

aus1111........On flat water, especially on a square course, heavier is definitely faster, but in the ocean, as in The LOC, it's 99% skill.


i agree, on flat water advantage for heavier sailors over lighter sailors is greater than when sailing on choppy/swelly water, where skill becomes an increasing factor.

however in this sport, once powered up the heavier guy with similiar technique will win hands down as topend speed is far greater.

a 55kg sailor has next to no chance against a 65kg sailor for topend speed.

the same when a 65kg sailor races a 80kg sailor.

however a 80kg sailor can get close to 100kg sailor for topspeed, why i don't know.


to say, it's 99% skill[in ocean sailing], sorry 15 to 20% skill, the rest weight + strength.

if it was a high percentage skill then where are the winners 75kg and under of any slalom/marathon event.

a few smaller/additional prizes for winning one's weight division could be offered at LOC.

can't see it happening however.

With the same sail area light weight sailors are advantaged - until it gets "really" overpowered, then the advantage is the heavy sailor.
With unlimited sail area the light wind bias is reduced, bigger sailors can use bigger sails for increased power in the light wind, and small sailors can use smaller sails when it is windy.
Even with formula sails (10, 11 and 12m sails) for any given sail area the light weight sailor has advantage until it gets really overpowered and then they change down a size while the heavy sailor has to persist with the bigger rig.

As a sailor with a power advantage myself I find...
In the light winds I use my 12m sail and still do not plane as early as lightweights with 10.7. Once planing things equalise.
When it is windy I use my 10.7 and sail the same straight line speed as the lightweights on 9.8m sail.

Being able to use a bigger sail is a blessing and a curse. Yes it gives you more power, but also has increased drag, and may well be at the limit of its performance range and hence really uncomfortable.
Last week I did some speed runs and found that my 10.7m sail was faster then my 12m sail (by about 10%).

There is no perfect handicap system, check out yachts and dinghies. They have struggled for a lot longer then we have with handicaps.

There is only one place where weight is good - and that is in a Steamroller.

JB

Different body dimensions will alwys dictate what sport one excels at .eg tall people and basketball, fat people and sumo wrestling, short people and horse racing.........

Ben 555 said...

Ditto to jaybee's comment

speed runs, comparitive testing, power advantages - jb those trophy harness lines Sean is putting up for us silver fleeters are looking like they have got your name on them

Ben,

I wouldnt dare stand in the way of you claiming the title mate. You have to uphold the Lake Macq tradition of blitzing the FE+.
There are a lot of places between you and me - we are not all naturally gifted sailors.

;-)

JB

Where is my division "Male from Eastern states, under 75kg, over 70kg - must have driven the Nullabor within the last 4 weeks"....

When does it stop...?

mathew said...

Where is my division "Male from Eastern states, under 75kg, over 70kg - must have driven the Nullabor within the last 4 weeks"....

When does it stop...?

Some place sensible

weight divisions would be unfair becuase AUS1111 would be the only one in mosquito weight and he would win all the trophies! (becuase of his skill) :)

you don't need divisions in formula, just give the trophy to Steve Allen and go to the pub. [}:)]

NotWal,
Optimisation of inertial mass factors based on hyperbolic frequential fourier transformations is obviously not your bag.

ou forgot to raise the advice quotient by the power of the length of ass crack.

H (kg) = cube root Wt (kg) x Ht (cm) x (A^LCrack) L (cm) / 1 - sq root v1 -v2 / c^2

There, I have fixed it for you.

Bloody amateur!!!!

NotWal said...

Richiefish said...

What about a formula incorporating size and weight of sailor in relation to board and sail dimensions therefore working out a complicated handicap rated system similar to the Sydney to Hobart yacht race ??????...........(yes I'm kidding)[}:)]

That's a good idea.

What are we testing for, sailor skill?
So we must eliminate all differences accruing from anatomy. Kit selection can be considered part of the skill set so kit need not be a consideration.

Anatomical advantage comes from weight, height, arm length. Gender need not be a consideration.

I propose the following formula -
H (kg) = cube root Wt (kg) x Ht (cm) x A L (cm) / 1 - sq root v1 -v2 / c^2
If H is positive the sailor is permitted to carry that much additional weight. Where H is negative the sailor is required to remove that much weight from his body. Alternatively a sailor can modify Wt, Ht or Arm length to fall within the positive H group. Races will not be delayed for surgery. It is the sailors responsibility to arrange compliance before the start or take a chance on racing without parts chosen at the Race Marshal's discretion.

Psychological advantage comes from fearlessness and cleverness. These attributes can be tested for by a Myers Briggs test and drugs administered appropriately. Alcohol is convenient and effective although it could create some hazards on the water. A handy collateral of the test would be the detection all the type As and psychopaths who should be placed at opposite end of the start line.

I commend this to you.

good stuff.....made me laugh.... there was a light weight division (under 75kg) but it has been replaced with FE+ in Australia.

Steve Allen was 81kgs when he won the worlds for the 3rd time this year, in what I would consider to be a medium to heavy winds comp. Clearly he is an exceptional racer, but certainly not a heavy weight.