I went out yesterday and used my large gear ( 125 board + 7.2m ) for the first time in a month or more.It was also the first time I'd used the 7.2m in chop and at the top of my wind range.It felt horrible.
I was pulling on my front arm a lot and my front foot wanted to come out of the strap. The board felt too big for the chop .The sailwas well behaved but I wouldn't have wanted any more wind.
I had to curl my front foot toes up really hard to keep it in the strap. A lot of the time I was working upwind or closereaching so my rear foot was out of the strap and in front /touching the back footstrap.I was really pushing hard on the fin.
Wind range was gusty 12kts -15kts in the bigger chop and up to 18kts + in smaller chop behind sand islands.
One of the good local sailors who was behind me said I needed more downhaul as it wasn't twisting off.We put more on and it was much better on port tack but still felt crappy on starboard.
I set the lines up using the guy cribb sheet which usually works .I moved them further forward when I was out there and that helped a little but still not great..
I've been using my 95 ltre board a lot lately and it feels a good size for me.On the big board I don't feel comfortable using front & rear straps going upwind which is scary when I am really powered up in chop and with only the front foot in.
When I beared off a bit everything felt a bit better but I don't often bear off..Apparently I was flying but I want to be comfortable!
Any ideas what could have been wrong ( othet than I'm a crappy sailor..)
Ps - it was the first time I'd sailed that setup with a normal fin .I had been using a 38cm weedfin. I used a 44cm usual one yesterday which I usually use on my 6.6m without problems.

Sorry c 64kgs.. I hadnt mentioned my weight as I always do and thought I'd bore people..
So what was suggested?

Sue - when I put the extra downhaul on I made the comment that it would be a good light wind setting.
Reflecting on what Mineral said it wasnt enough - I had set it for myself - 20kg heavier than you

and Sue......Get a longer downhaul rope

mineral1 said...

More down-haul, you are a fly weight, so it is a large sail to work, but its moreeeeee. I know you did do this as you said, but if centre of effort was pulling on front arm still, and you are using the Guy Cribb set up. Its more downhaul, which may only needed another 5-10mm.
You will be surprised on how much a tad more impacts the feel. My skills session at Christmas with him, showed that from a crap handling sail to a great handling sail, even for a bumble footed boof like me, is only a 5-10mm change makes all the difference

Oh forgot to add, Bum out, head in legs slightly bent, and change the boom height and try. Dont settle for its OK make the boom a little higher lower to keep the weight on your harness.

?? Yep I felt like I was having trouble pulling the sail in too & getting my weight in the bum / seat ( which is surpising as it's probably the heaviest part of my body..)

FiremanSam said...

I think I probably would have been better with the 6.6m

My eldest son (only 14) is same height as me 1.77m and weighs similar to you, and he can fly with just about anything... he found recently that he was quite settled on the clubs KA Koyote 6.6, rather than anything bigger. In fact on a recent gusty day, he had to downsize to a KA Koyote 5.9 (I think it was) and was very settled. Although Josh is on a smaller board - when it's steady 12-15 he is usually on a 93L F2 Axxis, so maybe the board is a bit big and the chop is making the board unsettled ?

In terms of the advice given to me (noob disclaimer here - only been sailing for a full year now)... Boom height was a killer for me, as soon as I raised it and got the weight off my feet, I was a lot more settled sailing upwind. Before that I was all over the shop. Got planing quicker too ! I naturally then found my sailing position on upwind easier (ie more of both legs bent parallel to the board with body forward, rather than downwind bent rear leg sort of thing).

In regard to downhaul... I use sail recommendations as a guide only.... usually find that the better approach is to use the sail twist off to the second / third batten where I need it for the days conditions.

When I first started reading up on downhaul, I read that less would give me more power... but further from it, it makes the sail fee ugly. I find that I now always give myself plenty of twist off for the gusts and use the outhaul to control the flatness of the sail if it's going to be a gusty / high wind day.

Yep. I got a big one ( 125) for the days when I drive the hour to sail and the winds died to 8kts . I can still go out and practise.
My next size down is the 95 so there is too big a size difference from the 125 - 95. I really need about a 105 / 110 for days like yesterday. Something I can still uphaul if the wind dies but not so scary in chop.
Using the big board in chop never used to worry me ( ignorance is bliss) .See my profile pics for a photo to see what I mean - but since getting hurt last season due to having too big a board I'm a bit nervous.
Problem is any more boards & I'll need a bigger car or a trailor..

Curling toes up on front foot is often due to being over-finned. The board is trying to rail up and the heel pressure you can exert is not enough to counter the railing up ...... so you naturally increase rear foot pressure (which means front foot wants to come out) and/or you curl the toes up. If your shin muscle (front leg) is sore after a 5min reach then you are likely over-finned.

This is exacerbated a little by being under downhauled as the sail is generating more sideways force (rather than forward drive) so the fin is making more lift, contributing to the railing up.

If more downhaul made one tack feel better than the other - it is harness line position. They can be the same on each side of the boom but on one run maybe you are sailing slightly more upwind and the other more downwind, which can sometimes mean a slight moving of the lines is in order. If you get that feeling, just sail the comfy tack (planing) with front hand off, then back hand off, see how the sail wants to move back or forward or not at all, then move the lines on the other side to try and duplicate that feeling. Often to get the same comfy feeling, it is an inch or so different.

EDIT: Pointman beat me to it I need to type faster

FiremanSam said...
When I first started reading up on downhaul, I read that less would give me more power... but further from it, it makes the sail fee ugly. I find that I now always give myself plenty of twist off for the gusts and use the outhaul to control the flatness of the sail if it's going to be a gusty / high wind day.

Less downhaul = more power is a common misconception. The statement is true enough, but not very helpful. For most sails the downhaul adjustment range is tiny - as in obsessive last 1% race tweak tiny. It's more helpful to say that more downhaul = less power, as in you can dump a bit of power by over-downhauling. But IMO under-downhauling doesn't really work too well. As you've discovered :)

That board, sail & wind range is easily within your skill level. I am a little heaver and I was out on my new board 122l(75 cm wide) 9m sail, 40cm fin for the first time on Sunday, which felt terrible the first time, and I am sure your probably a better sailor. After sailing formula I have learnt the importance of proper trim when using big sails, and the need to be methodical in finding those settings.

I think mineral is on the money, more down haul, make a note of the setting you were using, try one cm more, and then another. Until the sail feels light and stable at speed (and then use that as your light wind setting and don't be tempted to try less), then use another 1cm for when its honking.

Perhaps stick with the 38cm fin, I think that's enough for the 7.2M sail, on that size board. Then you have only just got to worry about the correct out haul and stance...

My 2 cents

CJW said...

Regardless of any other issues, sailing with the back foot out in 15kts+ on a 7.2 and 125L board in chop sounds straight up sketchy to me. I don't really understand why you were in this position? Sometimes on wave gear, under powered and under boarded it's useful to take the rear foot out in order to pinch upwind but it's rare and certainly something you shouldn't be doing on the gear you have described.

I'd also suggest that the Cribb sheets are merely a guide and personally can't see how they could work accurately given the sheer range of sail shapes/designs around; IE you're going to have to tweak the harness line positions. And as other have echoed sounds like more downhaul is the go.

Finally, sailing outside your comfort zone is the only real way you'll progress. By this I mean that learning to sail when things aren't 'optimal' is a great way of learning ways to cope with all sorts of scenarios. Case in point; on my freestyle board I run a 16cm fin, I use this with a 5.9 in 12kts up to a 4.2 in 50kts and everything in between. Now partly this is because what I use the board for (freestyle obviously) but learning to sail that board with that fin in such a wide variety of wind/sail combos is incredibly helpful for general board handling skills.

Embrace the outside of your comfort zone, hence develop skills to sail around it, you'll become a better sailor because of it...imo.

I feel the board is too big for my stance.I've got the footstraps as close as I can get them but they just feel uncomfortable going upwind.I find I go upwind much better with the front foot out although as you say it can be dodgy.
Someone had some measurement thingy to check the best spacing for footstraps for your size & mine are further apart than it suggested.
I have done most of my sailing outside my comfort zone now I have realised it can be comfortable I want to feel like that more often!
Another issue with using more downhaul ( more extension) is that if I have the boom at the centre of the cutout it will be about eye height. I have been running it higher than usual with longer lines .
How importrant is it to have it in the centre of the cutout for a sail that large? Should I go for comfort & run it at the lower end of the cutout..although I do find it hard to pull on the3 large sails and when I ran the boom higher I could hang off and use my weight more..However that was when the boom was c 5cms less extension lower than it will be now..

I am going to sound like a grumpy old bastard but.....

Sue - you need more downhaul
Sue - you need more downhaul
Sue - you need more downhaul
Sue - you need more downhaul
Sue - you need more downhaul
Sue - you need more downhaul
Sue - you need more downhaul
Sue - you need more downhaul


When you work on one thing at a time you will find solutions.............get the rig feeling light and then you can concentrate on other aspects clearly

As i previously posted - when I cranked more on (60mm people - no wonder it was pulling on your front hand) it was a light wind setting for me at 85 kgs - thanks Mineral for reminding me of the weight difference - we could have given it more to get a good setting for you in those conditions.


I was sailing a 10m / 125l /56 fin combo in the same conditions - I dont want to post to have a debate - but rigged right that board sail fin was a reasonable combo for the 10-15knots flat water that we had.

Ideally you come in crank another 10mm downhaul on test / crank / test / crank / feel happy about a setting / change fins / test yada yada yada.

Its a subjective process. No amount of posting on Seabreeze will rig it correctly.
But a good starting point for you is MORE DOWNHAUL and work on one thing at a time

Always happy to help you downhaul on the beach - just get some longer rope

sboardcrazy said...
Another issue with using more downhaul ( more extension) is that if I have the boom at the centre of the cutout it will be about eye height. I have been running it higher than usual with longer lines .
How important is it to have it in the centre of the cutout for a sail that large? Should I go for comfort & run it at the lower end of the cutout..although I do find it hard to pull on the3 large sails and when I ran the boom higher I could hang off and use my weight more..However that was when the boom was c 5cms less extension lower than it will be now..

I'm no expert but don't think it's important at all. I never have mine in the centre of the cutout but I have it about 1/3 down for all my sails. Position depends on your height and sailing style.

Sue put the boom where it is comfortable to you - NOT where someone tells you.
Using that logic you would follow Antione and Bjorn's sail settings

Harden up Farley

We are talking 10-15 knots, no boat chop, flat water on Wednesday.....formula heaven ...where were you?

(Like a junkie on the payphone outside Woolworths) ah come on mate sell me some of that stuff...(sniff) cmon mate you know I am good for it...its good stuff I just want a coupla metres of that good stuff cmon

Ben 555 said...

Harden up Farley

We are talking 10-15 knots, no boat chop, flat water on Wednesday.....formula heaven ...where were you?

haha still recovering from my 12m session on Monday - hope to get out again sunday arvo. see you there

Great Sue - was looking at the trees all afternoon - looked like it was similiar conditions to last week