Hi,
probably a question for the Formula dudes...

I would like to get some gear to be able to go sailing in the 10-15 knot range, reasonably flat water (ie top end of the bay in a northerly) and point upwind at a reasonable angle (like a average keelboat). Ideally the gear would be for mainly cruising but perhaps an occasional fun race one day..

Im not really keen on riding sails over 10m.

As far as current gear goes I currently have a 2004 GO 150 with 56cm Drake race fin, 8.4m no-cam KA kontrol sail, 490 NP mast, 200-250 NP boom. This setup is ok for reaching etc but when i have been out with other people on big gear they can point so much higher (my technique doesn't help either...).

Do I need a formula board?
Can I put bigger fins in the GO?
Will a cammed sail make much difference?
Do I need an adjustable outhaul?
Any approximate prices for second hand gear?

thanks for your advice

E,

A reckon technique means a lot .. read as much as you can to get all the inside info.. Down here we use mainly weed fins (which point like dogs) so good upwind technique is a must. I've also put adjustable outhaul on my bigger sails and this also helps a bit. I find now when I get back onto "normal" fins a can usually point fairly high..

Red

latedropeddy said...

Hi,
probably a question for the Formula dudes...

I would like to get some gear to be able to go sailing in the 10-15 knot range, reasonably flat water (ie top end of the bay in a northerly) and point upwind at a reasonable angle (like a average keelboat). Ideally the gear would be for mainly cruising but perhaps an occasional fun race one day..

Im not really keen on riding sails over 10m.

As far as current gear goes I currently have a 2004 GO 150 with 56cm Drake race fin, 8.4m no-cam KA kontrol sail, 490 NP mast, 200-250 NP boom. This setup is ok for reaching etc but when i have been out with other people on big gear they can point so much higher (my technique doesn't help either...).

Do I need a formula board?
Can I put bigger fins in the GO?
Will a cammed sail make much difference?
Do I need an adjustable outhaul?
Any approximate prices for second hand gear?

thanks for your advice

In the top end of 10-15, a Raceboard with 7.4 would be getting similar/higher upwind VMG to an Etchells, I think, but be much quicker downwind. A Windsurfer One Design (with 6m) would be getting similar/higher upwind VMG to a small keelboat (ie Flying 15, Sonata 8, Thunderbird) but would also break away downwind.

The longboards will still be lower than a boat upwind in 10-15, but can hang in there. Give them more breeze and a chance to foot into shifts and they are faster still. Against Skiffs (16s) I find the biggest problem is the square runs where they blast away under massive assys.

If "fun racing" means racing against boats under YV yardsticks, the Windsurfer One Design (yardstick 113 or 116 depending on sailor weight) has the advantage over the Raceboard (yardstick 92-97 depending on sail size IIRC) most of the time if there's no pumping, but it's still a struggle in light winds against good dinghies. Formula boards have no yardstick as they vary from amazingly quick (maybe yardstick 75-88 IMHO, ie speeds like a good to average cat) to a loooong way off the pace (ie slower than any longboard), depending on wind.

Almost any board will struggle against boats in light winds, compared to its strong-wind speed. By far ultimate board against boats IMHO is a Div 2/Lechner which can hold them in the light and blast away in a breeze, but they are rare and extremely tweaky.

i think 10-15 knots is plenty to have a 150 go cranking. however to crank upwind with max speed a 70cm fin would definately help out.

a couple of other things to look at -

boom height - setting a high boom, around nose height is good.

sail outhaul - setting the sail really full as per speed sailors is not good, try more outhaul.

harness lines - run long harness lines and hike out. drive through the fin and mastfoot while swinging your body forward. (ie. straight back leg). this gets your body weight off the board and transfers max power through the rig.

rig position - try and keep the rig as upright as possible.

board trim - try and keep the board level with just a "small" amount of leeward rail bias. (railing the board)

wind - you need to read the wind. head upwind if the wind shifts then downwind slightly if you start losing board speed.

water conditions - head upwind more when sailing down the back of the swell.

for formula, 10-15 knots is definately enough wind to get a big board flying and pointing high. on the race course though the guys on the 12m sails would out point an 8.5 easily.

upwind a formula board can't match a mono but slightly less angle and more speed will probably see you to the top mark first. put a formula board up against an 18' cat and it's game on. i reckon that would be a close race. it's fun sailing formula against cats.

that said technique is a very big part of it. any of the top slalom sailors on small gear could beat the majority of us on big around a triangle course. mainly through better techinque that produces faster board speed.

i wouldn't compare formula or "big" slalom kit to longboards though. the ride on a longboard is cruisey. even in "higher" winds. formula is more on the edge flat out sailing.

i had a go of a Kona on the weekend with a 6.2 in 5-18 knots of wind and it was a ball, felt like a raceboard without with the tracking and more of a carvey feel. for very light winds the raceboard and one design would be faster. but big thumbs up for the Kona!

one-design will do anything, but doesn't feel as small as a kona. and lacks the top speed of all of the other types of boards. but it will do anything.

Div 2 boards - do you like a challenge

raceboards - technical to sail, sliding mast track etc. feel like half way between formula and Kona.

formula - will sail fast on any point of sail. more slalom board feeling.

A bunch of Formula Guys sail at Kyeemagh / Botany Bay most weekend.
Come up and introduce yourself, We would be more than happy to help you out with tips etc.
Maybe you will get the urge to try Formula Experience Plus (FE+) this year?
It is a simple and easy way participate in some of the windsurfing events in NSW, and you can use any gear you want....Cheers

All that advice is well and good. but if you want to have a really good time in 10-15kts. I would say a switchblade 14 and an underground flx 138 would do the trick.

milko said...

All that advice is well and good. but if you want to have a really good time in 10-15kts. I would say a switchblade 14 and an underground flx 138 would do the trick.

If you go down the path of noob skilz you may as well buy a jetski.

Upwind pointing is directly related to how easily the wind will pull you onto a plane, no?
So the biggest improvement with my 160 GO was Atkins low carb WOE (way of eating) to get my weight down from 90 kg to 75 kg. Unlimited pork chops is the only sort of diet I could ever put up with. :)
Not so much improvement by going for a tight 3 cam sail, but worthwhile. Fin size remains a mystery to me, 70 cm is a pain and might only be better if you are keen enough to expend lots of energy to pump it? 40 cm seems to work with 8 meter sail providing all your weight is in the harness and you bear away whenever speed starts to drop. Straight legs a la Nick Thingo seems like a good technique...

Gestalt said...
water conditions - head upwind more when sailing down the back of the swell.

Would I be right in thinking that the only time one can pump a soft fin for "free" speed is when a swell is present? Otherwise it is rather unrewarding..

latedropeddy said...

Hi,

1.Do I need a formula board?
2.Can I put bigger fins in the GO?
3.Will a cammed sail make much difference?
4.Do I need an adjustable outhaul?
5.Any approximate prices for second hand gear?

thanks for your advice

1. It will plane earlier and go upwind significantly higher. I know this because I have raced against Formula boards in wind from 10 to20 knots on my Go 170 (90cm wide with 58cm fin) and they flogged me upwind although the Go can more than hold it's own reaching and downwind in anything but marginal conditions.
2. Definitely, but it won't bridge the gap to a Formula and may be hard on the ankles if you go to 70cm powered up on a 80cm wide board.
3. The 8.4 Koyote is actually very good in lighter winds (I have one and like it on the Formula as well). The cammed sail (9m Koncept) has a slight advantage at the bottom end because it hold it's shape better to glide the lulls but has a significant advantage at the top end in 'slipperyness', efficiency pointing high and stability overpowered. The dedicated Formula sails are a huge pain in the backside being backbreaking heavy and really hard to manouver so they are only worth the pain if you are a dedicated racer.
Bottom line is that unless you are actually racing there is probably not enough in it to justify the expense, even of a 9m Koncept especially considering a new mast and possibly boom.
4. Adjustable outhaul will help get more range and comfort from the sail.
5. I have seen older formula boards for well under $1000, even as low as $500!! Find one of them and you are laughing all the way upwind.

Look me up at Sandy Point sometime and you can try my older Starboard Formula for comparison, and you can try a 70cm fin in your Go while you are at it.

milko said...

All that advice is well and good. but if you want to have a really good time in 10-15kts. I would say a switchblade 14 and an underground flx 138 would do the trick.

kinda off the topic...but i'd pick a contra 14 a litewind designed flat kite better than the switch for those winds..other than that i'd go formula anytime

A permanently bent fin and permanent upward "lift" doesn't sound like a very efficient setup in light wind. Surely we are talking about pumping or fanning or some such dynamic input that racers use right up to 20 knots?

Sounds like formula boards are starting to evolve into something like a foiling moth. Foiling moths have demonstrated that a fully submerged foil (symmetric?) gives better lift to drag than a planing hull. And part way thru the evolutionary process any lift thru a bent fin will reduce the amount of that draggy hull you need in the water. Natural selection at work..beautiful.

Gestalt said...
harness lines - run long harness lines and hike out. drive through the fin and mastfoot while swinging your body forward. (ie. straight back leg). this gets your body weight off the board and transfers max power through the rig.

Yep. This technique will help a lot. You want as much weight as possible going through the mast base. 'Swing' out and forward, straight back leg, mast straight up or slightly forward for maximum power (say with Austrian accent).


It's all covered beautifully here:

www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/cranking%20upwind.pdf

mistakes:

Buying bigger fins. Better technique and being ‘powered up’ are
infinitely more important than fin size to get upwind, until you reach
international level competition, when every little bit helps.

from dat guycribb pdf