Sail wind range less for lighter people?

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sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
24 Mar 2010 9:03am
I seem to find a wind range of about 6kts between being powered up or too much & time to change down.Would being 64kgs & a weaker female explain this? Do you need weight & strength to hold a sail comfortably for a wider wind range?I'm not a brilliant sailor but I'm not too bad.
Sailhack
Sailhack
VIC
5000 posts
VIC, 5000 posts
24 Mar 2010 10:12am
At nearly double your weight...yep. I can hold down a fairly big sail when the conditions pick up. Downside is, if the wind drops...I'm the first one sinking!

Another angle is that some sails have a varying wind range, and 'vent' the excess wind better than others...if you're in the market for a sail, research your options, especially with modern sails.
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
24 Mar 2010 10:18am
I suppose there are a lot of variables like how much chop , the fitness of the sailor...I dont have my frontstraps set outboard so that might help me hang on longer..but does that make chop hops harder?
Sailhack
Sailhack
VIC
5000 posts
VIC, 5000 posts
24 Mar 2010 10:26am
I have my straps on the utmost outer settings, and have no probs chop-hopping, especially on my big board. The fact that you're leaning further back helps with sail control in the air, and reduces the risk of being pulled forward, not to mention that getting on the rails gets you going faster with more control.

As for your initial question, I think there are just some things you have to either have to put up with (in regard to weight vs increasing wind) as I do, or look at your setup, it could simply mean more downhaul for the initial rigging, and adjusting your outhaul when the wind changes?
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
24 Mar 2010 10:34am
I suppose I am just philosophying ( spelling..?)..I thought it would make sense that lighter people would have less wind range but I was wondering if there are any facts , research or general consensus that it's so.
petermac33
petermac33
WA
6415 posts
WA, 6415 posts
24 Mar 2010 9:34am
in light winds [only in winter] i sometimes rig my 7.7m / 75 wide board / 41 fin.

then also i rig my 5.8m / 64 wide board /36 fin. [when the wind gets above 12 knots]

you need to buy 2 booms,masts etc but this works especially for the variable conditions in winter.
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
24 Mar 2010 12:43pm
petermac33 said...

in light winds [only in winter] i sometimes rig my 7.7m / 75 wide board / 41 fin.

then also i rig my 5.8m / 64 wide board /36 fin. [when the wind gets above 12 knots]

you need to buy 2 booms,masts etc but this works especially for the variable conditions in winter.

Im getting there .. all I need now is another mast a 460 & Ill be able to do that too.. Be good for summer.Don't know if it will work as well for our winters as you can have 5 kts for 5 mins then 35kts for 5 then back to 5kts..

FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15100 posts
WA, 15100 posts
24 Mar 2010 10:24am
I think there won't be much difference in the range that sailors will have based on their weight. I think a lot of it will come down to the sail, the board, and the way it is all rigged.

A few years ago a friend and I were sailing in WA in strong winds where I was on a 7.5m and he was on a 7.0m and there was 20 to 25kgs difference in weight. He was handling the sail fine, even though other guys there were complaining about how strong it was with their 5.7m sails.

I think their problems were that they didn't have the sails rigged efficiently and may not have had their harness lines setup to take as much load off their arms.

As a heavyweight, I find that if I am sailing too overpowered, I will drop the boom down lower for control, but that's only if I have to. I would prefer to sail comfortably.

Maybe things will be easier now that you have a new boom and might be able to rig your sails better?

I prefer cammed sails as they keep their shape in the lulls, whereas my experience with non cammed sails has not been good in gusty wind. I preferred to sail a 8m V8 in Dahab than a 6m wave sail, as the power was much easier to handle, even when I had more power than I needed.

Crash Landing
Crash Landing
NSW
1173 posts
NSW, 1173 posts
24 Mar 2010 2:19pm
What you've all failed to mention (if I've missed it - sorry) is SKILL. People who are better at getting planing in light winds can take out a smaller sail and therefore hang on for longer when it picks up.

I know of people who are planing on 4.7s when others are bogging on 5.7s - and there isn't much difference in weight.
ejmack
ejmack
VIC
1308 posts
VIC, 1308 posts
24 Mar 2010 2:46pm
That's ok if you like sailing under powered (if the wind doesn't pick up, which is often). I know I don't. Powered to slightly over powered and things seem a lot easier to me.
Sailhack
Sailhack
VIC
5000 posts
VIC, 5000 posts
24 Mar 2010 3:02pm
ejmack said...

That's ok if you like sailing under powered (if the wind doesn't pick up, which is often). I know I don't. Powered to slightly over powered and things seem a lot easier to me.


I always go slightly bigger for that exact reason...and because as mentioned earlier...I have no skill!
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
24 Mar 2010 3:02pm
Durr.. A lightbulb just flashed on..I'm still sailing in the 90's..As soon as I get overpowered I come in & change down. I haven't even tried to downhaul / out haul more..
Is it possible to damage a modern sail downhauling it too much with a whinch?
FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15100 posts
WA, 15100 posts
24 Mar 2010 12:25pm
sboardcrazy said...

Durr.. A lightbulb just flashed on..I'm still sailing in the 90's..As soon as I get overpowered I come in & change down. I haven't even tried to downhaul / out haul more..
Is it possible to damage a modern sail downhauling it too much with a whinch?


No, ask all the Formula sailors... [}:)]

Well, they mostly damage them by putting sharp shards of mast through them, but it generally is hard to break sails.

You should be able to stick to the sail's specs and have enough downhaul. I don't adhere to some people's cries of 'more downhaul' when they don't even know what the settings are. You shouldn't have to go further than the maximum recommended downhaul settings, but this can vary a lot based on whether you have the right mast.

From what I have seen of a friend that rigged a modern sail the old way, there is definitely a big difference in the way you used to rig them and what you should do now.



busterwa
busterwa
3782 posts
3782 posts
24 Mar 2010 12:28pm
im with emac.
when i run overpowered it is usually because im required to make large upwind runs back to launchpoint.

i think with smaller sail you will be limited to your upwind.
depending on which way the wind is hittin th beech you can use overpowered sails for a advantage.

Most people with larger sail know how to use them
FormulaNova
FormulaNova
WA
15100 posts
WA, 15100 posts
24 Mar 2010 12:36pm
Crash Landing said...

What you've all failed to mention (if I've missed it - sorry) is SKILL. People who are better at getting planing in light winds can take out a smaller sail and therefore hang on for longer when it picks up.

I know of people who are planing on 4.7s when others are bogging on 5.7s - and there isn't much difference in weight.


There are a lot of variables in this. A different sail, a different board, and as you say, differences in skill.

I occasionally get people telling me that my sail is too big when they are on 5 - 6m sails and I start out with a 7.5m. I think they underestimate my weight, because its rare that I have to drop down a sail size. (Is this anti-skill?)

I think the only way to compare someone's skill is to have them on the same equipment and match their weights. So far no one has been willing to take up my challenge of sailing with 30kgs of weight strapped to their board Even then, its not really the same.

RumChaser
RumChaser
TAS
633 posts
TAS, 633 posts
24 Mar 2010 8:26pm
I've found that adjusting the sail can make a huge difference on what you can handle. My best was a 140 litre board with a 7 m sail in just under 20 knots. I'm 75 kilo. I found that just by flattening the sail by really pulling on the outhaul helped and moving the harness lines forward a touch to make the sail spill a little wind was a big help. Oh by the way, I should of just re-rigged but I'm too lazy.
NotWal
NotWal
QLD
7436 posts
QLD, 7436 posts
24 Mar 2010 7:32pm
sboardcrazy said...

I seem to find a wind range of about 6kts between being powered up or too much & time to change down.Would being 64kgs & a weaker female explain this? Do you need weight & strength to hold a sail comfortably for a wider wind range?I'm not a brilliant sailor but I'm not too bad.


I'm not sure about this but I think it may be true that sail wind range is narrower for lighter sailors.

Mast stiffness is always matched to sails rather than sailors. Heavy blokes get a relatively more compliant spring to play with. The mast can only bend as far as it is within the ability of the sailor to support it. In other words heavy blokes get more overall mast bend to play with than light blokes and sheilas :)

hmmmm....

For a test you could use a 430 with a heap of extension instead of a 460 and see if you get more range, but you do that already don't you Sue?
KA360
KA360
NSW
803 posts
NSW, 803 posts
24 Mar 2010 10:35pm
Or could it be that lighter sailors have a bigger wind range because they have a better power to weight ratio
The biggest sail I use is a 5.8m and in Canberra the wind is not strong.If a formula board with a 10m can plane,then so can I.If I rig a 6.5 on a 460(100%) I plane less(pumping is more exhausting with a 6.5).
The extra foot of mast and extra sail area add so much weight that i lose performance.
I am 65kg and yet when the wind increases instead of changing sails, I change to a smaller board
It sits lower in the water and requires more power and I will hold my 5.8m for as long as the 100kg guys do,
bearing in mind that I have more experience than most and have been referred to as freakish in my ability to plane early.

CRAZY- If you can get a 430 with extension to fit I think this would be a good option.I think this would give the larger sail a greater wind range for a light weight as it will twist off earlier due to being softer.If you get a 460,it has to be light for you(very high carbon%) but I'm guessing that because you are disappointed that you had to buy another boom because the last one only lasted 20 years,that this is not your preferred option.
And regarding chop hops,it will feel awkward with outboard straps at first.Your first jumps will be a bit kooky because you will be pulling the windward rail up more than before,work on using your ankles to try and keep the board flat,particularly at touchdown time.But you have been jumping for a long time and this wont be an issue.
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
24 Mar 2010 11:09pm
NotWal said...

sboardcrazy said...

I seem to find a wind range of about 6kts between being powered up or too much & time to change down.Would being 64kgs & a weaker female explain this? Do you need weight & strength to hold a sail comfortably for a wider wind range?I'm not a brilliant sailor but I'm not too bad.


I'm not sure about this but I think it may be true that sail wind range is narrower for lighter sailors.

Mast stiffness is always matched to sails rather than sailors. Heavy blokes get a relatively more compliant spring to play with. The mast can only bend as far as it is within the ability of the sailor to support it. In other words heavy blokes get more overall mast bend to play with than light blokes and sheilas :)

hmmmm....

For a test you could use a 430 with a heap of extension instead of a 460 and see if you get more range, but you do that already don't you Sue?


Yep..

sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
24 Mar 2010 11:13pm
KA360 said...

Or could it be that lighter sailors have a bigger wind range because they have a better power to weight ratio
The biggest sail I use is a 5.8m and in Canberra the wind is not strong.If a formula board with a 10m can plane,then so can I.If I rig a 6.5 on a 460(100%) I plane less(pumping is more exhausting with a 6.5).
The extra foot of mast and extra sail area add so much weight that i lose performance.
I am 65kg and yet when the wind increases instead of changing sails, I change to a smaller board
It sits lower in the water and requires more power and I will hold my 5.8m for as long as the 100kg guys do,
bearing in mind that I have more experience than most and have been referred to as freakish in my ability to plane early.

CRAZY- If you can get a 430 with extension to fit I think this would be a good option.I think this would give the larger sail a greater wind range for a light weight as it will twist off earlier due to being softer.If you get a 460,it has to be light for you(very high carbon%) but I'm guessing that because you are disappointed that you had to buy another boom because the last one only lasted 20 years,that this is not your preferred option.
And regarding chop hops,it will feel awkward with outboard straps at first.Your first jumps will be a bit kooky because you will be pulling the windward rail up more than before,work on using your ankles to try and keep the board flat,particularly at touchdown time.But you have been jumping for a long time and this wont be an issue.

My smaller board is older & has a lot more drag / doesnt plane as easily so i can feel the pull of the sail more & its harder to control..
Unfortunately I havent jumped much lately..never seem to get the right conditions..enough wind , chop at a good angle & me with energy so I havent had a decent go with this board yet..[}:)]
You were "disappointed that you had to buy another boom because the last one only lasted 20 years"

swoosh
swoosh
QLD
1929 posts
QLD, 1929 posts
24 Mar 2010 11:27pm
as a sailor of average weight and ability, I have never been jealous of sailors heavier then me, but I'm constantly jealous of sailors lighter then me. Maybe its the conditions on the east coast, but theres definately a lot more 15kt days then there are 30kt days, and they definately favor the lighter sailors.

6kts range from powered to time to change down isn't bad at all. that means say for example your biggest sail gets you planing in 13kts, you change down at 19kts, and then again at 25kts....

3 sails to cover 13kts to 31kts, seems to be fairly reasonable to me.

A heavy sailor has some advantages such as they seem to be faster, thou not significantly so unless you are counting into fractions of a kt. And possibly have greater windrange, but I think what they gain in upperwind range, they lose in lower wind range.

However they have a lot of disadvantages, they plane later so need to use bigger gear, which is more cumbersome and more expensive, more material and also because most sails bigger then say 6m, you need one mast to cover each sail size. And they are harder on gear as well and probably suffer breakages more often.


Bender
Bender
WA
2236 posts
WA, 2236 posts
24 Mar 2010 9:44pm
If you want to get the most wind range out of your sails. I strongly recomend using an adjustable outhaul.

Just try it. It will save you re-rigging everytime.
KA360
KA360
NSW
803 posts
NSW, 803 posts
25 Mar 2010 12:58am

My smaller board is older & has a lot more drag / doesnt plane as easily so i can feel the pull of the sail more & its harder to control..


You need a rocket 95,just like your 125 but sportier-you will instantly become at one with it,it will feel familiar but even better . If you see a used one,don't let it get away,snap it up and you should be able to get it for a good price.
Then find kid who wants to windsurf and give him/her a hifly gift
Seeings there isn't much wind you better get your paint brush out,you shouldn't have to sell many of your paintings to get your baby rocket!
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
25 Mar 2010 8:41am
KA360 said...


My smaller board is older & has a lot more drag / doesnt plane as easily so i can feel the pull of the sail more & its harder to control..


You need a rocket 95,just like your 125 but sportier-you will instantly become at one with it,it will feel familiar but even better . If you see a used one,don't let it get away,snap it up and you should be able to get it for a good price.
Then find kid who wants to windsurf and give him/her a hifly gift
Seeings there isn't much wind you better get your paint brush out,you shouldn't have to sell many of your paintings to get your baby rocket!

That would be motivating if the painting didnt have to pay a room full of bills..Mind you I have put it to the universe ( not that I really believe in that..does that mean it won't work..) that a rocket will appear! Its on my list for next season..maybe a rich rellie will die?

Leman
Leman
VIC
672 posts
VIC, 672 posts
25 Mar 2010 10:14am
Just like Swoosh I'm a little envious of the lightweight sailors getting going on small sails, however when the big winds kick up if at the same skill level, then weight and strength come into play. Still it would suck to be heavy but rather unfit. Can't see much advantage to just pure weight. Pros and cons to both but I think whether you're heavy or light, weight/strenghth ratio wins.

Like ejmack I would prefer to be powered to overpowered. Can upwind easily, jump off the smallest ramps and it's an awesome workout. Nothing worst than constantly falling off the plane or just barely planing.

sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
25 Mar 2010 11:08am
Leman said...

Just like Swoosh I'm a little envious of the lightweight sailors getting going on small sails, however when the big winds kick up if at the same skill level, then weight and strength come into play. Still it would suck to be heavy but rather unfit. Can't see much advantage to just pure weight. Pros and cons to both but I think whether you're heavy or light, weight/strenghth ratio wins.

Like ejmack I would prefer to be powered to overpowered. Can upwind easily, jump off the smallest ramps and it's an awesome workout. Nothing worst than constantly falling off the plane or just barely planing.



Mostly East coast since Xmas..Planing .. what's that?[}:)]

KA360
KA360
NSW
803 posts
NSW, 803 posts
25 Mar 2010 12:07pm
CRAZY- my neighbour has a 145 rocket and a new girlfriend

he doesn't seen to have time to ride both

You and that big rocket would make a great couple(threesome),particularly at this time of year

paint,paint,paint
KA360
KA360
NSW
803 posts
NSW, 803 posts
25 Mar 2010 12:29pm
Mind you I have put it to the universe ( not that I really believe in that..does that mean it won't work..) that a rocket will appear!

I contacted Mark Stone from SSD to discuss making a 35-40l board that my son desperately needs for strong wind.
The very next day,an friend I rarely see dropped by and said he has an old board that Alex might like as his boys have outgrown it.It was a 40l SSD.I couldn't believe it,and free.
What are the chances of that happening!(in Canberra)

The universe can make customs quicker than it takes to get production gear

So look up,believe and be careful,one might be falling from the sky land on your head
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
25 Mar 2010 1:28pm
KA360 said...

CRAZY- my neighbour has a 145 rocket and a new girlfriend

he doesn't seen to have time to ride both

You and that big rocket would make a great couple(threesome),particularly at this time of year

paint,paint,paint

Thanks but the 125 gets me out in 2kts -20kts..it getting a bit big & tiring at 20 so I really want a 105ltre? to replace my hifly which i havent sailed since I got the rocket..I suppose I should sail it as now Im not expecting it to be usable in 5 kts it will prob be Ok in 15kts +..however Ive got slack with the forgiving nature & volume of the rocket & I think Ill be falling in on my gybes with the smaller ones..not good in winter.

sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
25 Mar 2010 1:29pm
KA360 said...

Mind you I have put it to the universe ( not that I really believe in that..does that mean it won't work..) that a rocket will appear!

I contacted Mark Stone from SSD to discuss making a 35-40l board that my son desperately needs for strong wind.
The very next day,an friend I rarely see dropped by and said he has an old board that Alex might like as his boys have outgrown it.It was a 40l SSD.I couldn't believe it,and free.
What are the chances of that happening!(in Canberra)

The universe can make customs quicker than it takes to get production gear

So look up,believe and be careful,one might be falling from the sky land on your head



pepe47
pepe47
WA
1382 posts
WA, 1382 posts
25 Mar 2010 11:40am
sboardcrazy said...

KA360 said...

CRAZY- my neighbour has a 145 rocket and a new girlfriend

he doesn't seen to have time to ride both

You and that big rocket would make a great couple(threesome),particularly at this time of year

paint,paint,paint

Thanks but the 125 gets me out in 2kts -20kts..it getting a bit big & tiring at 20 so I really want a 105ltre? to replace my hifly which i havent sailed since I got the rocket..I suppose I should sail it as now Im not expecting it to be usable in 5 kts it will prob be Ok in 15kts +..however Ive got slack with the forgiving nature & volume of the rocket & I think Ill be falling in on my gybes with the smaller ones..not good in winter.




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