How much horsepower in a sail?

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evlPanda
evlPanda
NSW
9207 posts
NSW, 9207 posts
4 Jan 2010 1:10am
Just wondering what the power:weight ratio might be of a windsurfer. Obviously depends on how much fuel is going across it, but does anybody have any idea?
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12872 posts
WA, 12872 posts
3 Jan 2010 10:30pm
Not sure you're asking the right question here.
From 1/2 a century ago, schoolboy physics. horse power is rate of doing work.
So the horsepower a sail develops depends on weight of rider and rig, friction overcome and speed of board.

The force in a windsurfing sail is limited by the ability of the rider to counterbalance the sideways force.
Heavier the rider, more force is available and more work is done, so more horsepower generated.
So you have to specify riders weight as well.
stehsegler
stehsegler
WA
3571 posts
WA, 3571 posts
3 Jan 2010 10:58pm
not sure about sails but I used to own a Tencate Fury plastic board back in the day... I guess that would count as one horse power.

... thinking of it... that board was actually really hip by todays standards. It had a thruster setup not unlike the tri fin boards on the market today. Should have kept it. Shame it got soft after 3 seasons.
pweedas
pweedas
WA
4642 posts
WA, 4642 posts
4 Jan 2010 12:02am
Hmm, very interesting.
Horsepower is the rate of doing work. It was determined a long time ago that a "husky horse" could lift 550 pounds weight, one foot in one second so this was called 1 horsepower. (don't laugh. It was all very logical back then. )
Thus a horsepower is 550 foot pounds per second.

Sooooooo,.. for a windsurfer, you need to guess how many pounds force is required to pull the windsurfer over the water at so many feet per second.

Sooooo,. first the easy bit,. how many feet per second?
Typically this would be around 20 to 30 knots, lets say 25 knots.
25 knots is about 29 miles per hour and,.. there are 5280 feet in a mile.
Thus, 29 mph = 29 X 5280 / 3600 = about 42.5 feet per second.

The tricky bit is guessing how many pounds force it takes to pull you along at that speed.
This would be a combination of the forward component of your foot pressure, the forward component of the force on your arms and harness lines, and the forward component of the mast foot force.
The forward component of all these forces would vary considerably with how the whole rig was trimmed, but I would guess that trimmed properly, it would be around 50% of the force on each.
My guess on the total on all of these would be around 40 pounds. (just my guess thinking about the forces on my arms and legs.
Someone might have a better guess on this one, but let's go with this for the moment.)

Sooooo,.. (wait for it, nearly there,..) horsepower is
42.5 ft per sec X 40 pounds / 550 ft lbs per sec = 3.1 horsepower.
and if you're interested, wattage = 3.1 X 746 = 2312 watts. i.e 2.3 KW.

This would probably vary in an almost linear manner with speed.
i.e. twice as fast is about twice the horsepower, because I think the forward force does not increase greatly with speed. In fact, if the board gets up and skates then the forward force could even be less.
Half as fast is about half the horsepower.

Power : weight ratio depends on how fat you are.
Lets say 150 pounds total weight. gives 150 / 3.1 = 50 pounds per horsepower, which is pretty pathetic really.
It will never get off the ground!





nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
4 Jan 2010 12:09am
I'm sure that someone did the calcs for this before on seabreeze, and arrived at similar figures. I can't find the post though.

Just as an aside, a normal human cyclist (ie not wearing lycra ) is usually accepted as being able to sustain around 1/4 horsepower. So if you had 12 cyclists pulling you along in a strong tailwind you'd get planing

Sounds about right.
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
4 Jan 2010 9:27am
decrepit said...

Not sure you're asking the right question here.
From 1/2 a century ago, schoolboy physics. horse power is rate of doing work.
So the horsepower a sail develops depends on weight of rider and rig, friction overcome and speed of board.

The force in a windsurfing sail is limited by the ability of the rider to counterbalance the sideways force.
Heavier the rider, more force is available and more work is done, so more horsepower generated.
So you have to specify riders weight as well.

Is that why Im not as fast as the heavier guys..? Great at least now I have an excuse!

ginger pom
ginger pom
VIC
1746 posts
VIC, 1746 posts
4 Jan 2010 10:37am
You could work it from acceleration too. Better to pick an environment where acceleration is easy (eg sandy point)

Top speed = 70km/h =~ 20 m/s
Mass of ginger pom + kit =~ 100kgs
Kinetic energy at top speed = .5 x m x v^2 = 20000J

I'm not sure how long it takes to wind it up to 35 knots but one of the speed guys would know.

Time to reach top speed = 20 seconds
Average kinetic energy gained per second = 20000/20 = 1kW

Time to reach top speed = 15 seconds
Average kinetic energy gained per second = 20000/15 = 1.3kW

Time to reach top speed = 10 seconds
Average kinetic energy gained per second = 20000/10 = 2kW

1 horsepower = 746 W

Not far off Pweedas estimate. I haven't allowed for any friction or air resistance at all so in practice it would be more than my estimates (especially before you get planing and just before you reach top speed - when friction is highest)

If you want to be properly nerdy, ask one of the speed guys for their steepest acceleration graph (this will naturally be when friction is lowest) and use the following formula...

f= ma
f x v (average for that one second) = wattage
Richiefish
Richiefish
QLD
5612 posts
QLD, 5612 posts
4 Jan 2010 10:47am
whats that in "dogpower"..??
evlPanda
evlPanda
NSW
9207 posts
NSW, 9207 posts
4 Jan 2010 11:59am
See, I knew I'd get some good answers.

3 HP sounds about right, when comparing to, say, a 10hp kart.

Of course there are too many variables like wind, sail size etc. but yeah, feels like we trim the sails to about 3HP max (or over we go). Actually I was expecting about 1HP or less. That's a lot of horses.
Ian K
Ian K
WA
4169 posts
WA, 4169 posts
4 Jan 2010 9:13am
Someone needs to waterski a windsurfer hull behind a motor boat with a spring balance in the tow rope.

Or you could estimate it by comparing regular windsurfers to hydrofoiling windsurfers. The hydrofoilers seem to be go with about half the horsepower of a planing windsurfer, judging by the way they use smaller sails and the riders don't hike out as hard.

A human can develop 1 hp for a period of 1 minute. ref. Bicycling Science Whitt and Wilson 1974.

1 person can only just get hydrofoilers up and going.

lancet.mit.edu/decavitator/

If you allow for a bit of inefficiency in the propellor - That's ~ 3 hp to keep a windsurfer hull going.
MintoxGT
MintoxGT
WA
975 posts
WA, 975 posts
4 Jan 2010 6:46pm
Geez I wish I could figure that stuff out
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