Boom diameter and forearm pain?

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laurie
laurie
SA
3887 posts
SA, 3887 posts
30 Nov 2009 5:53pm
I injured my forearm muscles (flexors), and found this article about how boom diameter can affect forearm pain, and what you can do about it.

Its from the Journal of Sports Science and Medicine, where they setup a land based windsurfer and hooked the guys up with electrodes to measure the effects of different boom diameters...

Click the PDF link at the top right of this page:

www.jssm.org/vol6/n1/17/v6n1-17abst.php

Or, direct:
http://www.jssm.org/vol6/n1/17/v6n1-17pdf.pdf

In summary:

The important activity of the flexor muscles in the fingers in windsurfing compared to other muscle group activity is thus clearly established; it now seems it could be interesting to study this activity to reveal the positions in which it is the strongest.

Our study confirms the results of previous studies by showing the flexor muscle activity in the fingers is stronger when the hand is in pronation. This would explain the pain felt by most windsurfers in their forearms. These pains are linked to an accumulation of lactic acid associated with weak localized oxygenation.

To hold off the presence of these pains and fatigue, the surfer frequently changes hand positions (palm up or down). This intermittent change improves the quality of vascular circulation.

To rest, the windsurfer can also hold the wishbone in the crook of their arm or with the armpit of the following arm, but there is a risk of nerve and vascular compression and this position cannot be held very long. The use of a wishbone which is small in diameter (28 mm) seems to decrease the muscular activity of the flexors in the fingers, and thus using this type of wishbone can avoid muscular pain in the forearm for as long as possible.


Your thoughts / experience?
Mark _australia
Mark _australia
WA
23647 posts
WA, 23647 posts
30 Nov 2009 3:35pm
I found skinny booms reduced my forearm and wrist pain to nil, nothing. Not one iota of pain, compared to fatter booms where I always got some sort of discomfort after an hour or so on the water.

Of course another way is to use mega stable sails and not too big a board so you are not wrestling the gear...... and then when in the harness you are hardly touching the boom and not continually trimming the sail. So it comes down to lots of money to buy heaps of gear so you're always on the ideal setup
AUS1111
AUS1111
WA
3621 posts
WA, 3621 posts
30 Nov 2009 4:14pm
I was doing slalom racing around 20 years ago when the sails were not as stable as they are now, and to be more competitive, I also began wearing a weight jacket. Over a period of six months or so I developed "compartmental syndrome" in my forearms and got to the point where sailing became impossible.

Compartmental Syndrome is similar to carpal tunnel, whereby the muscles in the wrist / forearm become inflamed and then constrict blood flow to the hands leaving no strength at all to grip the boom.

I had surgery on both arms and was unable to sail for six months or more as a result.

In modern race sails the draft is much more stable and hence stress on the arms seems much less. Nevertheless I have switched to the narrowest diameter boom I could find (Streamlined), which also has the advantage of a very wide front end, and very straight boom arms. This enables you to sail in the less-powerful, but more comfortable position of front hand palm-down. That is how I sail 90% of the time and I have no such problems now.
nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
30 Nov 2009 5:10pm
Believe it or not my arms cramp up in about half an hour with a skinny boom, whereas with a normal boom I can sail for hundreds of k's...

So much so that I'm getting my latest carbon boom regripped so that the grip is fatter!

People are different.
lee1972
lee1972
QLD
921 posts
QLD, 921 posts
30 Nov 2009 7:59pm
I hear you brother, went out one christmas when i was just starting. It was blowing full on 30 knots and here was me trying to hold on with a 5.8 ( im 67kgs) without a harness. After i was rescued, and all my gear packed away by others i managed to get home. I had serious case of tennis elbow, golfers elbow or whatever you want to call it, both on top of the formarm and underneath. It was painful to say the least, i went to see a phyiso for treatment.

My advice would be to see someone and in the meantime buy some support bandages, dont ignore it thinking it will repair itself
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12872 posts
WA, 12872 posts
30 Nov 2009 6:56pm
When we came back from 3 months in Europe last year I went for a distance effort in the GTC. Soft hands + long distance = bleeding hands. So I bought some gloves for the next time I went out, after 15mins or so my forearms pumped up and were very sore, couldn't sail for very long until my blisters healed and I could discard the gloves.
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
30 Nov 2009 11:20pm
I have a 40mm wide boom & get muscle stiffness after sailing but i think that is more from the few times I have to use the strength ( or lack of ) in the arms when i'm unhooked ,gybing,waterstarting ,jumping, etc & streches after help that. I'm hooked in most of the time & use my body to control the sail..why do you have to grip the boom tightly with your hands..?
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12872 posts
WA, 12872 posts
30 Nov 2009 8:45pm
sboardcrazy said...

>>>>>.why do you have to grip the boom tightly with your hands..?


Fear, -- adrenalin.
Quite often I find myself gripping much harder than necessary, if I concentrate quite often I can have sufficient control with just finger tips, but as soon as I stop concentrating, there I go again gripping tightly.
Haven't tried this at 30+ knots over chop though.
sausage
sausage
QLD
4874 posts
QLD, 4874 posts
30 Nov 2009 10:48pm
I have to agree that I noticed my forearm pain (arm pump) completely disappeared when I got my new skinnier (29mm) boom, but alas it broke only after 3 months. Big wide head also made palm down grip much more comfortable as Chris mentioned.

Nebs - there's always one freak of nature.
nick0
nick0
NSW
510 posts
NSW, 510 posts
1 Dec 2009 12:31am
the only pain i get in my arms is after sailing for a few hours and my muscles are just sore from sailing in general .. what is it about the diamiter that causes pain?
saltiest1
saltiest1
NSW
2568 posts
NSW, 2568 posts
1 Dec 2009 12:52am
nick0 said...

the only pain i get in my arms is after sailing for a few hours and my muscles are just sore from sailing in general .. what is it about the diamiter that causes pain?


you tried alternating grip? 1 hand over 1 hand under? i had the same problem then started doing this obvious thing.
gbr659
gbr659
WA
13 posts
WA, 13 posts
30 Nov 2009 10:30pm
I have read the article you mention. I think it makes sense and it was one of a number of things that prompted me to recently upgrade to a narrower diameter boom.

There are a multitude of potential forearm problems which can be associated with windsurfing. I've been having increasing problems with what I believe is chronic exertional compartment syndrome which is what Chris Adamson describes. This may well not be what is troubling you but I run into major problems with both forearms, and is at it's worst if I don't ease myself into a session/warm up gradually. Free sailing it's not too bad but I'm really struggling slalom racing and by the end of a heat often have difficulties gripping the boom - it's very disheartening especially when I don't feel 'tired'. The other time I struggle is wave riding on a long wave. As it happens I have an appointment with a sports medicine doctor this week to discuss the problem. I have done lots or reading and will have to have a chat to Chris about his surgery. It is very common in motorbike racing:

http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/me2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=9B767DC2DD8E4A11B6C914E5A0E9FAF8
pierrec45
pierrec45
NSW
2005 posts
NSW, 2005 posts
1 Dec 2009 1:40am
Diameter must matter, because sailing with gloves, even very thin ones, in cold weather, makes a huge difference.

I find anything away from straight-line sailing useful to rest the arms. Going freestyle (front-to-back or pushing the rig) rests the entire set of muscles. Frequent gybes and tacks also shift the workload to other muscles for a few seconds.

EDIT: woops, also changing under-over hand grip also helps a tiny bit. Limited though.
easty
easty
TAS
2213 posts
TAS, 2213 posts
1 Dec 2009 9:27am
decrepit said...

sboardcrazy said...

>>>>>.why do you have to grip the boom tightly with your hands..?


Fear, -- adrenalin.
Quite often I find myself gripping much harder than necessary, if I concentrate quite often I can have sufficient control with just finger tips, but as soon as I stop concentrating, there I go again gripping tightly.
Haven't tried this at 30+ knots over chop though.


Read something in a Peter Hart? article years ago about relaxing and "playing the piano" on your boom as you sail along. Make yourself do this every now and then and you'll realise that you are in fact gripping too hard, and also if your harness lines are in the right place or not.
When I was young and silly and into hardcore rockclimbing, I had a series of chin-up bars (all palm over, like I sail) ranging from 10mm door frames to 90mm pvc pipe (with sandpaper glued to it for grip). I could do 30 odd on the doorframe on my fingertips, but after a few on the 90mm pipe my forearms would be like Popeye's and about to explode.
drift
drift
VIC
737 posts
VIC, 737 posts
1 Dec 2009 9:33am
decrepit said...

When we came back from 3 months in Europe last year I went for a distance effort in the GTC. Soft hands + long distance = bleeding hands. So I bought some gloves for the next time I went out, after 15mins or so my forearms pumped up and were very sore, couldn't sail for very long until my blisters healed and I could discard the gloves.


I agree Decrepit,
I used gloves over the start of winter and couldn't work out why I was getting pain in my forearms. Kato suggested that the thickness of the glove (they were sailing gloves) was enough to make me stretch my grip slightly and apply more grip pressure.
I got rid of the gloves and straight away the pain went away.
russh
russh
SA
3027 posts
SA, 3027 posts
1 Dec 2009 9:12am

Just to add to the mix:

I think tight winter wetsuits on your forearms don't help either as well as they restrict venous return from you forearm muscles and they become engorged and your arms pump up leaving no grip strength - particularly if its on off gusty strong wind.

Whenever I wear short arms I never get it and I have no idea what diameter my boom is
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
1 Dec 2009 9:48am
decrepit said...

sboardcrazy said...

>>>>>.why do you have to grip the boom tightly with your hands..?


Fear, -- adrenalin.
Quite often I find myself gripping much harder than necessary, if I concentrate quite often I can have sufficient control with just finger tips, but as soon as I stop concentrating, there I go again gripping tightly.
Haven't tried this at 30+ knots over chop though.


I suppose I'm very aware of not gripping the boom tightly & trying to stay relaxed ( not always easy..!) as my chiro has pointed out with my shoulder / neck problem I can't afford to cramp up + I have 2 residual tennis elbows from a work injury so must look after them.
Also I find I wear out quickly so I probably don't stay out long enough to get problems ( 1.30hrs..)
Squid Lips
Squid Lips
WA
708 posts
WA, 708 posts
1 Dec 2009 7:01am
russh said...


Just to add to the mix:

I think tight winter wetsuits on your forearms don't help either as well as they restrict venous return from you forearm muscles and they become engorged and your arms pump up leaving no grip strength - particularly if its on off gusty strong wind.

Whenever I wear short arms I never get it and I have no idea what diameter my boom is


Definitely agree with this. I rarely get sore arms since moving north.

Those of you with chronic problems should consider seeing a Chiropractor before thinking about surgery. There are so many things which seem like muscular problems that are caused by a slight misalignment where a nerve passes between bones.

easty
easty
TAS
2213 posts
TAS, 2213 posts
1 Dec 2009 10:14am
A simple test - put your forearm up in front of you, with your hand bent over as if on a boom - change the diameter of your grip (extend and contract fingers) and watch (or feel with your other hand) the forearm muscle changing shape. The larger the diameter, the more the muscle stretches out. If you are in an office, your co-workers will just think you've lost it for a while, don't worry about them So I think this means a narrower boom will cause less lactic acid build up that gives you the pumped feeling.
poor relative
poor relative
WA
9106 posts
WA, 9106 posts
1 Dec 2009 7:51am
I developed a cure for sore arms once.
However i left the serum on the No. 31 bus and never got it back.
sboardcrazy
sboardcrazy
NSW
8333 posts
NSW, 8333 posts
1 Dec 2009 11:49am
easty said...

A simple test - put your forearm up in front of you, with your hand bent over as if on a boom - change the diameter of your grip (extend and contract fingers) and watch (or feel with your other hand) the forearm muscle changing shape. The larger the diameter, the more the muscle stretches out. If you are in an office, your co-workers will just think you've lost it for a while, don't worry about them So I think this means a narrower boom will cause less lactic acid build up that gives you the pumped feeling.


Can't feel the difference..unlike you muscley blokes I havent got any muscles !

Windxtasy
Windxtasy
WA
4019 posts
WA, 4019 posts
1 Dec 2009 10:19am
pierrec45 said...

Diameter must matter, because sailing with gloves, even very thin ones, in cold weather, makes a huge difference.



I think that's just the cold.
I don't use gloves, and my hands and forearms get very sore and crampy in cold weather - forcing me to stop sailing.
Same long sleeved wetsuit in warmer weather - no problems.
Richiefish
Richiefish
QLD
5612 posts
QLD, 5612 posts
1 Dec 2009 1:05pm
drift said...

decrepit said...

When we came back from 3 months in Europe last year I went for a distance effort in the GTC. Soft hands + long distance = bleeding hands. So I bought some gloves for the next time I went out, after 15mins or so my forearms pumped up and were very sore, couldn't sail for very long until my blisters healed and I could discard the gloves.


I agree Decrepit,
I used gloves over the start of winter and couldn't work out why I was getting pain in my forearms. Kato suggested that the thickness of the glove (they were sailing gloves) was enough to make me stretch my grip slightly and apply more grip pressure.
I got rid of the gloves and straight away the pain went away.


same here. Sailing gloves are too thick.
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
1 Dec 2009 1:01pm
drift said...

decrepit said...

When we came back from 3 months in Europe last year I went for a distance effort in the GTC. Soft hands + long distance = bleeding hands. So I bought some gloves for the next time I went out, after 15mins or so my forearms pumped up and were very sore, couldn't sail for very long until my blisters healed and I could discard the gloves.


I agree Decrepit,
I used gloves over the start of winter and couldn't work out why I was getting pain in my forearms. Kato suggested that the thickness of the glove (they were sailing gloves) was enough to make me stretch my grip slightly and apply more grip pressure.
I got rid of the gloves and straight away the pain went away.


Thats from having gloves that are too tight, used to happen to me when I was waterskiing.
nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
1 Dec 2009 1:07pm
I suggest that the problem with wearing gloves isn't the extra thickness, it's the lack of grip as you have two interfaces (hand -> glove -> boom) instead of one (hand -> boom).

This means less grip, so you need to clench your fist harder to compensate, so your forearms cramp up.


Agree with the comments regarding wetties reducing circulation though.
NR
NR
WA
517 posts
NR NR
WA, 517 posts
1 Dec 2009 2:54pm

I particulary like:

"Our study confirms the results of previous studies"

Also

"To rest, the windsurfer can also hold the wishbone in the crook of their arm or with the armpit of the following arm, but there is a risk of...." getting slammed face first into their sail at the slightest gust of wind.
elmo
elmo
WA
8890 posts
WA, 8890 posts
1 Dec 2009 4:30pm
I use gloves (NP) but not standard yachty gloves found I actually grip the boom lighter as the palms have gripy dots all over them so there is very little slippage.
Bender
Bender
WA
2236 posts
WA, 2236 posts
1 Dec 2009 4:42pm
elmo said...

I use gloves (NP) but not standard yachty gloves found I actually grip the boom lighter as the palms have gripy dots all over them so there is very little slippage.


problem with that, is it rips soft skin off
Krisiz1
Krisiz1
WA
331 posts
WA, 331 posts
1 Dec 2009 8:33pm
I got a case of tennis elbow a few years ago and it takes a long time to heal and windsurfing used to aggrevate it. I had to wear a brace for about a year, but it does eventually heal completely. I was advised to do forearm excersizes which helped my sailing endurance a lot. Using only a weight bar with no weights on it, hold the bar as if you were about to do a curl but starting with arms horizontal (bit like you were holding the boom both palms up) Curl the bar but only from the wrist, you will soon feel the burn. Do the same excersize palm facing down curling your wrist backwards. I am not a qualified fitness instructor, it just worked for me
pierrec45
pierrec45
NSW
2005 posts
NSW, 2005 posts
2 Dec 2009 12:15am
Windxtasy said...

pierrec45 said...

Diameter must matter, because sailing with gloves, even very thin ones, in cold weather, makes a huge difference.

I think that's just the cold.
I don't use gloves, and my hands and forearms get very sore and crampy in cold weather - forcing me to stop sailing.
Same long sleeved wetsuit in warmer weather - no problems.

Nope, I tried gloves in the summer (for a try), and same result. I use large diameter, and I suppose it's border line and the smallest difference matters.

Here is cold (not Australia), and gloves are a must.
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