I think they should ban all short masts in fact I think they should double the length of all foil masts for all those who expect to learn foiling without going through some sort of pain.
geez just think how bad a lateral crash would be detatch your ankles me thinks.

4 hours into the foil learning curve and very happy to have a 1 mtr mast, gives more time to correct a rising foil before ventilation happens.
Having your front foot way forward really helps controlling the nose coming up too fast.

INTHELOOP said..
Hi guys,i did a foiling clinic last week in Sydney's Dolls Point beach.I must say its pretty much the perfect location to foil and learn how to foil and also pretty damn nice to race and go fast throughout the bay.I had 3 complete beginners and a bunch of advanced guys learning foiling manoeuvres and techniques. We also spend a bit of time tuning their kites, foils and boards.The Beginners:One guy had a liquid force fish, he is an experienced kiter. The other two guys used a KFA MakoV1 with a fat boy board 32litres. Both guys on the KFA/ Fat boy got up and foiling on the 1st days while the other guy on the Liquid force still didn't get up after 2 days. However all had a ball.Main reasons for the above are the board and the lower take off/ stall speed of the lifty KFA foil which both helped the guys to get up and going easier. Especially the volume and weight of the board helps a lot with water start and riding the board in water before take off. The lighter foil makes it easier to get going. Always start off with a 9/10 or 12m kite in 10-16 knots. That the best windspeed to learn and progress up onto the foil.The smiles and stoke on the faces of people is amazing, always reminds me of kids riding their 1st meters on the kite board..

And yet, so many people learn to ride with the LF. Maybe he just couldn't adapt to foiling...? A poor workman blames his tools and all that :D

There were also more experienced people at the clinic I gather so I'm not sure that's a fair jab. I ride a different brand (spotz) but I'd attend a foiling clinic by marvin if he had one in Perth.

I haven't ridden the LF foil but while I'm curious how it'd compare to my Spotz 2, I frankly didn't have all that much trouble learning directly on a carbon race foil. I paid less for a refurbished/reenforced Spotz 2 and board than I would have spent on an entry level setup and I can't see myself needing to upgrade anytime soon. Although having a second slower low aspect foil some day to surf and play around like Greg Drexler of BRM has crossed my mind.

Woah, ^^^ thats impressive.

than

RAL INN said..

jamesperth said...
Im with Bletti.

I'd 100% attend a clinic if i thought it could help with more advanced moves like tacking and upwind 360. Im also riding 2 foils at the moment - KFA Mako with a race(ish) board and a Magma Barracuda with a small 125cm strapless TMV. Both offer high challenged and are totally different experiences. Anyone whose seen Marv;s Ninja Tack clip would know he's got a lot to offer !

No ones denighing Marvin has a lot to offer. He just needs to offer it in the right way and not via jumping on every foil thread to tell us that his Swiss built mako is the only possible foiling solution and that racing is the only way to foil.

Thanks for your feedback mate. I also appreciate your forum post on kite forum.com which amused me since you are the forum foil pimp #1 with your french alloy foils.I will always say what i think and will not bull**** people or beat around the bush. It has been like this from day on Seabreeze and i won't change. I think my customers and kiting buddies appreciate this. Teaching and gear advise is what we educate ourselves with as much as possible. I am in touch with most of the bets foilers from all over the world getting feedback on foils, kites, bars, riding... This is what i pass on to our anybody that is interested. The amount of R&D and testing involved is huge but results in good products. Yes Europe made foils like KFA, Sowrd or Levitaz will beat China products any day!I have been a quite on the forums because i rather spend time on the water and beach and help to developing spread the foil froth. I guess you are trying to do the same?If somebody got the chance to buy a Levitas, Spotz or KFA Mako i will always tell them to do that over a LF, Zeeko or any other alloy foils even they will probably need to spend a few more $.Have a good day your foil brother and expert!

INTHELOOP said..

Thanks for your feedback mate. I also appreciate your forum post on kite forum.com which amused me since you are the forum foil pimp #1 with your french alloy foils.I will always say what i think and will not bull**** people or beat around the bush. It has been like this from day on Seabreeze and i won't change. I think my customers and kiting buddies appreciate this. Teaching and gear advise is what we educate ourselves with as much as possible. I am in touch with most of the bets foilers from all over the world getting feedback on foils, kites, bars, riding... This is what i pass on to our anybody that is interested. The amount of R&D and testing involved is huge but results in good products. Yes Europe made foils like KFA, Sowrd or Levitaz will beat China products any day!I have been a quite on the forums because i rather spend time on the water and beach and help to developing spread the foil froth. I guess you are trying to do the same?If somebody got the chance to buy a Levitas, Spotz or KFA Mako i will always tell them to do that over a LF, Zeeko or any other alloy foils even they will probably need to spend a few more $.Have a good day your foil brother and expert!

Many other good brands out there, not only Levitaz, Spotz and Mako.... But once again you are making a fool of yourself trying to bash products you haven't even tried.

I have seen the KFA Mako and although I think it is a very well made product, it is still a Race dedicated foil. Its design would make it a less than average foil for those interested in carving waves. The fact that Front wing/Fuselage/Stab is a single piece, prevent any DIY backyard builders to try different design of wings which is what makes foiling interesting.

Australia is a tiny market and if you go where it is big (ie Europe), you will see that no one ride KFA there. Most of the market is actually oriented toward freeriding which is why most of the big brands jumped into the bandwagon and now offer entry level foils. You will see brands like Ketos, Zeeko, Ketos

I personally ride a Zeeko carbon and I haven't been able to fault it so far. Would I buy it again? Most definitely!
My current set up is with the freeride wing which I have taken to 30kn (I am not interested in going faster). I have just ordered a new wing called the Carver and also the speed wing.
This is part of the fun of foiling and If you think your KFA can do it all, it is like saying that VEGAS/TORCH/FUEL are the best for Wave/Race/Freestyle/Freeride.

Out of all the brands you recommend, the only ones that have an all rounder option are Levitaz and Sword (the new Joy) who were smart enough to diversify their offer and bring good quality beginner/intermediate/freeride options to the market.
Again, the alloy foil line up is sufficient for most of the keen riders wanting to have a go. Even though you try to steer people away from the Zeeko alloy, I am yet to hear anything negative about it. A friend of mine has had the first edition since it was released with 100+ session and it still look and perform very good.

Not as smooth a ride as a carbon however just a third of the cost....

Did you use to be a car yard salesman? You sound like one

This threads getting a bit Bitchy!

Think you all should get the sand out of ya vaginas!

Livit said..

INTHELOOP said..

Thanks for your feedback mate. I also appreciate your forum post on kite forum.com which amused me since you are the forum foil pimp #1 with your french alloy foils.I will always say what i think and will not bull**** people or beat around the bush. It has been like this from day on Seabreeze and i won't change. I think my customers and kiting buddies appreciate this. Teaching and gear advise is what we educate ourselves with as much as possible. I am in touch with most of the bets foilers from all over the world getting feedback on foils, kites, bars, riding... This is what i pass on to our anybody that is interested. The amount of R&D and testing involved is huge but results in good products. Yes Europe made foils like KFA, Sowrd or Levitaz will beat China products any day!I have been a quite on the forums because i rather spend time on the water and beach and help to developing spread the foil froth. I guess you are trying to do the same?If somebody got the chance to buy a Levitas, Spotz or KFA Mako i will always tell them to do that over a LF, Zeeko or any other alloy foils even they will probably need to spend a few more $.Have a good day your foil brother and expert!

Many other good brands out there, not only Levitaz, Spotz and Mako.... But once again you are making a fool of yourself trying to bash products you haven't even tried.

I have seen the KFA Mako and although I think it is a very well made product, it is still a Race dedicated foil. Its design would make it a less than average foil for those interested in carving waves. The fact that Front wing/Fuselage/Stab is a single piece, prevent any DIY backyard builders to try different design of wings which is what makes foiling interesting.

Australia is a tiny market and if you go where it is big (ie Europe), you will see that no one ride KFA there. Most of the market is actually oriented toward freeriding which is why most of the big brands jumped into the bandwagon and now offer entry level foils. You will see brands like Ketos, Zeeko, Ketos

I personally ride a Zeeko carbon and I haven't been able to fault it so far. Would I buy it again? Most definitely!
My current set up is with the freeride wing which I have taken to 30kn (I am not interested in going faster). I have just ordered a new wing called the Carver and also the speed wing.
This is part of the fun of foiling and If you think your KFA can do it all, it is like saying that VEGAS/TORCH/FUEL are the best for Wave/Race/Freestyle/Freeride.

Out of all the brands you recommend, the only ones that have an all rounder option are Levitaz and Sword (the new Joy) who were smart enough to diversify their offer and bring good quality beginner/intermediate/freeride options to the market.
Again, the alloy foil line up is sufficient for most of the keen riders wanting to have a go. Even though you try to steer people away from the Zeeko alloy, I am yet to hear anything negative about it. A friend of mine has had the first edition since it was released with 100+ session and it still look and perform very good.

Not as smooth a ride as a carbon however just a third of the cost....

Did you use to be a car yard salesman? You sound like one

Few good points mate but maybe don't state things you don't know about, 'nobody rides KFA foils in Europe'. FYI we sold about 50 foils in Europe and some of the best guys ride them including: Guy Bridge, James Johnson, Maxime N., Romain Castel, Julien Kerneur, Alejandro, Florian Trittel... Back on topic: C-kites actually work pretty good in waves and downloop nicely. If you want something that turns and changes directions quickly you will need to make the fuselage shorter (bring front and aft closer together) which will increase the pitch and turning. However, to keep the foil stable enough you need to get the wings balanced. Easiest way to do that is to increase surface area. When wave riding just don't surface the front foil or it can become gnarly with all that gear stuck in the wave.. pretty scary. I have ridden smaller waves on the foil but am a bit hesitant to go into bigger stuff, maybe this year after L2L, Hydrofoil Pro Tour we can go to Margs and try.. Laird Hamilton was smart using boots i think so the foil could not chase him when crashing in waves, just gotta hold your breath and be a strong swimmer without your legs..I think free riding it is more about how you ride the foil than anything else. For instance in jumping the faster you can go upwind the higher you will jump as you can load the lines more. So a foil that cranks upwind with over 20 knots will jump huge in 15-20knots with a 15m kite. Weight also that makes a big difference. The lighter the board and foil are the easier everything becomes including turning, tacking, gybing, pitching, healing, crashing, touching down, waterstarts, jumping, landing...My tip for the day- start using shorter lines. 20m is spot on for freeriding. Feels amazing to foil with shorter lines..

Touche Marvin!

Lucky my KFA Mk3 can take it!

Kamikuza said...
Laird wasn't attached to a kite though. I like my joints in their sockets...

Shorter fuse is more reactive but you also have to react faster.

I wish people would stop throwing out specific rules for line lengths. One size never fits all.

One size, one style, one design
Bring on the choices.

Just about every season old race foil sells for under 1500 now.On average spotz2 going for 1200-1400.
In some of the older original versions of spozt2 yes there were issues, and the wort wing can develop a wobble.Mine took just under a year and the week it went was due to boosting and riding it in mental conditions. Unless you been racing fora solid season and don't using is for boosting, the front wing should last a solid season, then a just pick up a cheap replacement front wing for around 450
Take a old board and DIY putting in your own box.

Vast majority of foilers in Aus learn't on race foils, even if you dont want to race, a race foil is great to cruise.... racers dont race evey day, 9/10 sessions they just go cruising, but cruise faster than you could on a foilfish.

And not sure why the hate on foil racing gear, with many racers buying upgrade foils every season so there is heaps of cheap used foils for sale. Same with kites...Look how many tube ace kites were available at awesome prices when they raced inflatables, hardly any now as they now onto foil kites and again... there great bargain offers to be had if you keep intouch with the racers selling off gear. Ive helped sell 9 season old carbon race foils for under 1500 in the past 5 months. many don't even make it as far as the classifieds before being sold.
if you have a preference to certain brand, or style, as most people do thats ok... your opinions is your own, dont force it on others. Its your stoke, your fun, your money, do it how ever you want with whatever gear you want.

Kamikuza said..
Again with the speed! Asking why it's relevant isn't hating: if you're not actually racing, what does it matter how fast your foil is? (apart from increasing your PKE when you slam into the water. Ouch.)
I've yet to hear a cogent answer to that.

Here's an anecdote for you . . .
Last week out with my buddy. He had a Levitaz and a Sonic 9, I had my Foil Fish and a 2011 Switchblade 14m cos I knew it was going to rain and I didn't need a soggy foil to deal with.

He wasn't steaming away from me, either in straight-line speed or upwind angle. I doubt he was at race pace, so just for cruising we weren't unmatched. . . .

If you don't want used, the cheapest setup I've seen is the thekitefoil.com rig. Free shipping too.

What part of my comment above regarding spend you money on what ever you want, ride what ever you want and don't give a damn about what anybody else thinks was I not 100% clear about??
Sound like your mate was having fun cruisng with his buddy, and not being a dick leaving you behind; good on him. much like cars, Just because you have a car that can do 250 and get to 100 under 5 seconds, doenst mean to do that at every given occasion. But for some knowing the option is there if they want to open it up.

Kamikuza said..

MaxVMGRacing said..

Kamikuza said..
Again with the speed! Asking why it's relevant isn't hating: if you're not actually racing, what does it matter how fast your foil is? (apart from increasing your PKE when you slam into the water. Ouch.)
I've yet to hear a cogent answer to that.

Here's an anecdote for you . . .
Last week out with my buddy. He had a Levitaz and a Sonic 9, I had my Foil Fish and a 2011 Switchblade 14m cos I knew it was going to rain and I didn't need a soggy foil to deal with.

He wasn't steaming away from me, either in straight-line speed or upwind angle. I doubt he was at race pace, so just for cruising we weren't unmatched. . . .

If you don't want used, the cheapest setup I've seen is the thekitefoil.com rig. Free shipping too.

What part of my comment above regarding spend you money on what ever you want, ride what ever you want and don't give a damn about what anybody else thinks was I not 100% clear about??
Sound like your mate was having fun cruisng with his buddy, and not being a dick leaving you behind; good on him. much like cars, Just because you have a car that can do 250 and get to 100 under 5 seconds, doenst mean to do that at every given occasion. But for some knowing the option is there if they want to open it up.

Oh, that was perfectly clear, which was why I dont question it--in fact, I heartily agree.

Let me clarify what I still want to know then:

"What benefit for the non-racing rider, especially an entry-level rider, is a foil with a high top speed?"

After all, the mess learners make of even the family car is well known and those have brakes. Plus the YouTube is full of videos of experienced non-racers with "power option" vehicles making a mess of themselves when they "open it up"...aside from comedy value for the audience...

Its cheap, and being a higher aspect foil gives the learner options to progress further if he chosen to do so, he'd be in the position to make take that choice after less than 4 weeks. As much as assuming every rider will become a racer, its equally unfair to assume that they wont or dont wish to go/cruise faster that a LF in the very near furture.Ive seen 90% of the local race fleet go from day 1 to their first race learning on race/high-performance foils. you have to pay your foiling dues regardless if what type foil you learn on, thats half the fun learning :)
it takes very little to hit the max speed potential of a LF but is absolutely a brilliant learning foil.
There various ali foils are good options bought new, for crusiers but at their price you can buy a good higher performance foil for cheaper, or even buy new for not much more. Speak to the brand owner of the high performace foil (proven in open competition) and they about on par as a zeeko carbon prices... proven foils have the option of being easy to offload.... try selling ncihe brand or a "race foil" thats never been seen on a race course... Surley resale should be a consideration.

Brohan said..

Kamikuza said..
Again with the speed! Asking why it's relevant isn't hating: if you're not actually racing, what does it matter how fast your foil is? (apart from increasing your PKE when you slam into the water. Ouch.)
I've yet to hear a cogent answer to that.

Here's an anecdote for you . . .
Last week out with my buddy. He had a Levitaz and a Sonic 9, I had my Foil Fish and a 2011 Switchblade 14m cos I knew it was going to rain and I didn't need a soggy foil to deal with.

He wasn't steaming away from me, either in straight-line speed or upwind angle. I doubt he was at race pace, so just for cruising we weren't unmatched. . . .

If you don't want used, the cheapest setup I've seen is the thekitefoil.com rig. Free shipping too.

The reason I want something fast is on my surfboard I smashed the fins out, I bought a cheap pair thinking that would do. Once on the board I could feel the difference in speed and the board felt sluggish. I like to go fast and I think while the lf is good to learn the speed doesn't seem that good (so I've read). Once I get the hand of foiling I want to be able to cruise around the bay at a nice speed. My watch has clocked me going around 42kms on my board.

Should have said you had a speed addiction in the beginning ;) Do what VMG said or check out thekitefoil.com Manta2 with race wings, but that'll be over your budget with their board. . .

And it'll be interesting to get your reactions of doing high speed while on a foil too :D