America's Cup Preview

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evlPanda
evlPanda
NSW
9207 posts
NSW, 9207 posts
15 Jun 2011 9:59am
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
15 Jun 2011 9:54am
Wow, its come along way since Bondy and co. Hope there is some close racing
dinsdale
dinsdale
WA
1227 posts
WA, 1227 posts
15 Jun 2011 12:58pm
Naaah! That's just the kid brother. The AC45 is for the Junior America's Cup. The grown-ups will be playing for real, with the AC72. Not sure if there's one sailing yet, but they are the new America's Cup class.

doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
15 Jun 2011 1:10pm
That is amazing, I like the curved keel design, I guess they slide up and down depending on direction.
busterwa
busterwa
3782 posts
3782 posts
15 Jun 2011 1:39pm
so what are the principles of that twin hull yacht?

Does one side anchor in the "rail of the boat" and the other sheet in as much as possible until there out of the water! They use rachets to pull the sail in?
Im a windsurfer and probally never even get to go on a boats like that unless i win lotto .. twice ;-)

I think it would be a pretty skilled technical sport to do.To get a boat like that really humming would be a rush.
dinsdale
dinsdale
WA
1227 posts
WA, 1227 posts
15 Jun 2011 1:43pm
doggie said...

That is amazing, I like the curved keel design, I guess they slide up and down depending on direction.

Yes, they do slide up and down. They're "centerboards", as distinct from a "keel" - there's no heavy weight on the ends. I suspect that there's a little "artistic licence" happening there also. I think they should probably curve the other way, so that as the boat "leans" (flies a hull) the leeward centerboard would become more vertical in the water, thus enhancing its effectiveness. As they're shown their effectiveness would reduce as the boat leans. It's a clever idea to curve the centre boards though. A bit like the swing keels being used on ocean racing yachts - viz: Volvo70, only different .

doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
15 Jun 2011 2:02pm
dinsdale said...

doggie said...

That is amazing, I like the curved keel design, I guess they slide up and down depending on direction.

Yes, they do slide up and down. They're "centerboards", as distinct from a "keel" - there's no heavy weight on the ends. I suspect that there's a little "artistic licence" happening there also. I think they should probably curve the other way, so that as the boat "leans" (flies a hull) the leeward centerboard would become more vertical in the water, thus enhancing its effectiveness. As they're shown their effectiveness would reduce as the boat leans. It's a clever idea to curve the centre boards though. A bit like the swing keels being used on ocean racing yachts - viz: Volvo70, only different .




And from what I understand, those "swing" keels were a progression from the Ben Lexan winged keel where the idea is to keep weight as low as posible, and reduce side slip. Well thats what I remember anyway
dinsdale
dinsdale
WA
1227 posts
WA, 1227 posts
15 Jun 2011 2:03pm
busterwa said...
so what are the principles of that twin hull yacht?

Does one side anchor in the "rail of the boat" and the other sheet in as much as possible until there out of the water! They use rachets to pull the sail in?
Im a windsurfer and probally never even get to go on a boats like that unless i win lotto .. twice ;-)

It's primarily a matter of levers. The leeward hull provides the fulcrum, the sail the load and the crew etc on the windward hull providing the effort. So you can cope with more wind and still keep the whole shebang upright. There are other bonuses too, such as considerably reduced drag in the water and considerably reduced overall weight. Also. I'm quite sure that as the leeward hull buries into the water it acts like the rail on your board, to stop you from simply drifting sidewards (in conjunction with the centreboard).

Sail trim is done by ratcheted winches, but that's just a requirement due to the huge loads involved. Small dinghys might have a ratchet block to help the crew hold the weight on the sheet, but as the sails/loads get bigger a winch is required. I think there's some rule disallowing motorized winches for racing yachts, but I know they're available for cruising yachts.

busterwa said...
I think it would be a pretty skilled technical sport to do.To get a boat like that really humming would be a rush.

Yes, I certainly agree there. Having sailed small boats, at quite a high level for many years, and knowing the rush there, I reckon it would be an adrenaline rush to easily rival windsurfing. The blokes who sail these things at that level are elite athletes in any company.

Can't wait to see one of these things in the flesh, sailing. Btw, the AC45 is the America's Cup 45 (feet long) and the AC72 is the America's Cup 72 (feet long) - they're big boats!

dinsdale
dinsdale
WA
1227 posts
WA, 1227 posts
15 Jun 2011 2:05pm
doggie said...
And from what I understand, those "swing" keels were a progression from the Ben Lexan winged keel where the idea is to keep weight as low as posible, and reduce side slip. Well thats what I remember anyway

Yea, again sorta the same, but different .

ps Can you tell that this is just my thing. I really do love sailing (yachts).

Richiefish
Richiefish
QLD
5612 posts
QLD, 5612 posts
15 Jun 2011 4:14pm
is that the thing that was cartwheeling and pitch poling across San Francisco Harbour yesterday with crew flying in all directions ?.....
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
15 Jun 2011 2:14pm
dinsdale said...

doggie said...
And from what I understand, those "swing" keels were a progression from the Ben Lexan winged keel where the idea is to keep weight as low as posible, and reduce side slip. Well thats what I remember anyway

Yea, again sorta the same, but different .

ps Can you tell that this is just my thing. I really do love sailing (yachts).




Yea I can tell I havnt done much sailing but love the Americas Cup, Ben Lexan is def one of my heros, he was an amazing designer/engineer

The most recent sailing I have done is hobie cats in the river, best fun when its windy
dinsdale
dinsdale
WA
1227 posts
WA, 1227 posts
15 Jun 2011 2:54pm
Richiefish said...

is that the thing that was cartwheeling and pitch poling across San Francisco Harbour yesterday with crew flying in all directions ?.....

I wouldn't doubt it. Sailing one of those things would be as dangerous as any other elite sport. I'm sure that sailing either an AC45 or an AC72 would be razor's edge stuff.

If you come across a bonafide news item about that I'd love to see it.

EDIT: Found it!
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2003314/Crew-sent-flying-new-catamaran-cartwheels-sea-San-Francisco-Bay.html

MORE EDIT: From the article:
"Competitors will use the new catamarans in 2011-2012 Americas Cup World Series starting in Cascais, Portugal, in August.

Larger 72ft AC72 catamarans, which have yet to be built, will be raced in the competition the following year in San Francisco."

The "Americas Cup World Series", btw is not the "America's Cup"


longwinded
longwinded
WA
347 posts
WA, 347 posts
15 Jun 2011 3:00pm
Got me interested too dinsdale.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2003314/Crew-sent-flying-new-catamaran-cartwheels-sea-San-Francisco-Bay.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

EDIT!
You must of found it the same time as me.
log man
log man
VIC
8289 posts
VIC, 8289 posts
15 Jun 2011 7:36pm
I always thought sailing was one of those sports that's deadly tedious to watch on telly but good fun to do. Like motorcycle racing and sex( though come to think of it watching sex on telly isn't that bad).
CJW
CJW
NSW
1731 posts
CJW CJW
NSW, 1731 posts
15 Jun 2011 9:54pm
dinsdale said...

doggie said...

That is amazing, I like the curved keel design, I guess they slide up and down depending on direction.

Yes, they do slide up and down. They're "centerboards", as distinct from a "keel" - there's no heavy weight on the ends. I suspect that there's a little "artistic licence" happening there also. I think they should probably curve the other way, so that as the boat "leans" (flies a hull) the leeward centerboard would become more vertical in the water, thus enhancing its effectiveness. As they're shown their effectiveness would reduce as the boat leans. It's a clever idea to curve the centre boards though. A bit like the swing keels being used on ocean racing yachts - viz: Volvo70, only different .



They are curved that way because they are 'foiling' centre boards, that is, they create a large vertical lift component when sailing, massively reducing the wetted surface drag on the hulls, which is what it's all about. They curve inwards so as heel increases so does the lift and tangential force decreases, which makes the boat easier to control in high heel angles. If you curve them the other way lift decreases with heel but the tangential force increases, making it fairly sketchy as you increase heel angle.

While AC72 is pretty cool, it's no BOR90...that thing was/is ridiculous and I doubt we'll ever see anything like it again for a long time.
choco
choco
SA
4181 posts
SA, 4181 posts
15 Jun 2011 11:10pm
preview this

latedropeddy
latedropeddy
VIC
417 posts
VIC, 417 posts
15 Jun 2011 11:47pm
I love wing sails. Aussies have had a huge impact on their development and implementation.

These Blokes in Vic dominated the "little americas cup", early 90's


Then tackled speed: first craft over 50 knots. does high 40's in 17knots breeze, one of the most efficient sailing craft around.


Then there was BOR90. awesome. head engineer is an aussie.


cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
16 Jun 2011 12:06am
Slightly relevant. Sailing scene from the 99 version of "The Thomas Crown Affair".

saltiest1
saltiest1
NSW
2568 posts
NSW, 2568 posts
16 Jun 2011 5:39am
kinda hard to reef a fixed blade.
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
16 Jun 2011 8:46am
choco said...

preview this




That was an expensive crash, hows the guy falling through the sail/wing!!
byf
byf
WA
517 posts
byf byf
WA, 517 posts
16 Jun 2011 8:55am
They interviewed the guy that went through the sail on the news last night doggie and he reckons if he didnt have his helmet on it may have been much worse as he went through it head first.
doggie
doggie
WA
15849 posts
WA, 15849 posts
16 Jun 2011 9:34am
byf said...

They interviewed the guy that went through the sail on the news last night doggie and he reckons if he didnt have his helmet on it may have been much worse as he went through it head first.


Just from that footage they were very lucky that no one was hurt badly, are those wings made from carbon and kevlar? They would cut you badly I would expect
latedropeddy
latedropeddy
VIC
417 posts
VIC, 417 posts
16 Jun 2011 1:10pm
carbon frame & structural elements, skin is equivalent to mylar or other stretchy stuff.
Yeah agree regarding reefing, you'd need a different system for the ocean.
dinsdale
dinsdale
WA
1227 posts
WA, 1227 posts
16 Jun 2011 11:19am
CJW said...
They are curved that way because they are 'foiling' centre boards, that is, they create a large vertical lift component when sailing, massively reducing the wetted surface drag on the hulls, which is what it's all about. They curve inwards so as heel increases so does the lift and tangential force decreases, which makes the boat easier to control in high heel angles. If you curve them the other way lift decreases with heel but the tangential force increases, making it fairly sketchy as you increase heel angle.

That's very clever indeed. I did think that they might be foils, but obviously the whole boat doesn't lift out of the water on them, there being only 1 each side. I can see how they would reduce drag a huge amount. Can't wait to see them sailing.

dinsdale
dinsdale
WA
1227 posts
WA, 1227 posts
16 Jun 2011 11:21am
Imagine how speccy a similar crash will be in a 72 footer!
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